Getting a receipt or proof of sale for used watch from individual seller or "dealer"

[FrançoisCzapek]

If you are buying a used watch from an individual, especially an individual who became an amateur or hobbyist "dealer" of certain watches that became popular, how do you get a receipt or a proof of sale?

I thought this isn't a stupid question because if you report the watch stolen in that unfortunate case, you actually have to prove you own the watch. Possessing the original box and papers might not be enough to report the watch stolen. If you buy from an established used watch store, they will issue an actual receipt, that is very clear.

So for an individual, is it reasonable to ask for some form of written receipt (and if you want to be meticulous, you would ask for this to be notarized in front of a notary public, though some sellers might see this as over the top)? Is it also reasonable to ask if the seller is the current registered owner or how the seller is authorized to represent the current registered owner, especially if the seller's name is not the one in any original papers? Again, it's very possible these days to be dealing with a flipper or even a student or young hobbyist who is a "dealer" who sells watches online for "clients."

Or is this overthinking it below a certain price point?

[Andad]

Buy the watch, send it to a RSC for a service.

If they send you a quotation it is probably not stolen and not a fake.

Make sure you can find the seller.

[FrançoisCzapek]

My question isn't about proving the watch is authentic, it's proving that you own it if you are not the original owner. Especially to report it as stolen if that ever happens.

Two very different things.

[Sublovin]

Your payment source will provide proof. PayPal, credit card company, etc.
Unless you hand him a brown bag of cash, you will have a receipt.
Also, insurance covers the value, not the purchase price, so proof of value is more important

[S.Explorer]

If buying from an individual (personally I'd go for a reputable dealer), I'd suggest doing a receipt proforma and having the seller fill in the details and sign it. May be worth doing ID checks too.

Print and keep all correspondence.

[Kevin of Larchmont]

Originally Posted by FrançoisCzapek

If you are buying a used watch from an individual, especially an individual who became an amateur or hobbyist "dealer" of certain watches that became popular, how do you get a receipt or a proof of sale?

Again, it's very possible these days to be dealing with a flipper or even a student or young hobbyist who is a "dealer" who sells watches online for "clients."

Or is this overthinking it below a certain price point?

The answer is easy, don’t buy a watch from anyone who fits this description.

[Michael T]

Get a bill of sale that has language that the seller had good and marketable title free and clear of any liens. That way if there is a problem you have documentation.

[Tim Plains]

Originally Posted by FrançoisCzapek

My question isn't about proving the watch is authentic, it's proving that you own it if you are not the original owner. Especially to report it as stolen if that ever happens.

Two very different things.

But if the watch was stolen, the previous owner would most likely report it to Rolex, so getting a service through Rolex is a valid way of determining theft.

[FrançoisCzapek]

so most reputable individual sellers would not protest being requested to sign a simple receipt or bill of sale, and it's not odd to request this? unless it's some stripe of agent or amateur dealer, he can't be anonymous because you actually need to know who to pay to.

[rootbeer7]

I have requested and will provide a simple receipt stating “watch type, serial number and sold as seen on x date”.

[padi56]

Originally Posted by FrançoisCzapek

so most reputable individual sellers would not protest being requested to sign a simple receipt or bill of sale, and it's not odd to request this? unless it's some stripe of agent or amateur dealer, he can't be anonymous because you actually need to know who to pay to.

Might I suggest you do not buy a Rolex watch if it's going to cause you so much worry about receipts, or being stolen ,having been polished or not etc.Or only buy new or if they sell used from any official Rolex AD, then you would have nothing to fret and worry about.

[joli160]

I think you should follow the advice of Peter and live worry free. Less stress.

[KatGirl]

Originally Posted by padi56

Might I suggest you do not buy a Rolex watch if it's going to cause you so much worry about receipts, being polished or not etc.Or only buy new or if they sell used from any official Rolex AD, then you would have nothing to fret and worry about.

You are reading my mind, Peter. I know it’s a lot of money, OP, so do what I do. Only buy from an AD. Then you will have none of these worries.

Kat


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[GGGMT]

Originally Posted by FrançoisCzapek

If you are buying a used watch from an individual, especially an individual who became an amateur or hobbyist "dealer" of certain watches that became popular, how do you get a receipt or a proof of sale?

I thought this isn't a stupid question because if you report the watch stolen in that unfortunate case, you actually have to prove you own the watch. Possessing the original box and papers might not be enough to report the watch stolen. If you buy from an established used watch store, they will issue an actual receipt, that is very clear.

So for an individual, is it reasonable to ask for some form of written receipt (and if you want to be meticulous, you would ask for this to be notarized in front of a notary public, though some sellers might see this as over the top)? Is it also reasonable to ask if the seller is the current registered owner or how the seller is authorized to represent the current registered owner, especially if the seller's name is not the one in any original papers? Again, it's very possible these days to be dealing with a flipper or even a student or young hobbyist who is a "dealer" who sells watches online for "clients."

Or is this overthinking it below a certain price point?

Don’t buy from a seller of the sort you’re talking about. Just don’t do it. AD or better than an AD, the boutiques here. They are very good at doing nice receipts


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Andad]

Originally Posted by FrançoisCzapek

My question isn't about proving the watch is authentic, it's proving that you own it if you are not the original owner. Especially to report it as stolen if that ever happens.

Two very different things.

You can have receipts from sellers but you won’t find out if a Rolex watch has been stolen until it is presented to a RSC for service.

There have been many instances of sellers unknowingly selling a stolen watch.

Surely you can show confirmation of a purchase on your bank account with the sellers bank details?

Unless you gave them cash in a paper bag?

[FrançoisCzapek]

Originally Posted by Andad

Surely you can show confirmation of a purchase on your bank account with the sellers bank details?

Correct. Is this usually enough, including as proof of ownership when reporting a stolen watch (a watch stolen from you after purchase), since it shows a payment but not the purchase of a specific watch?

[Tools]

Originally Posted by FrançoisCzapek

Correct. Is this usually enough, including as proof of ownership when reporting a stolen watch (a watch stolen from you after purchase), since it shows a payment but not the purchase of a specific watch?

A receipt from an individual, unless it can be verified with that person, shows only that you presumably bought it from him, not ownership.

If you file a police report you only need to present that a crime was committed, and the crime included x, y, and/or z. If x is recovered, then it will be returned to you unless there are other claims. Then it becomes who can prove their claim

[TickTockChuck]

If the original owner is selling, perhaps a clear copy of the original sales receipt from an AD would help verify the provenance. The older the watch the harder to do. Otherwise, a third party seller might not really know the true origins. Too bad Rolex doesn't have a public access registry for stolen watches.

[dukie748]

I buy all my watches from AD's and have yet to sell one since I started collecting back in the 90's - but if I did sell one, I'd be happy to provide a Bill of Sale for provenance / ownership purposes, which would also tie in to the original receipt. To me it's not big deal and might help provide the buyer peace of mind - I've always done it with cars, motorcycles and higher value items.

[FrançoisCzapek]

Originally Posted by Tools

A receipt from an individual, unless it can be verified with that person, shows only that you presumably bought it from him, not ownership.

If you file a police report you only need to present that a crime was committed, and the crime included x, y, and/or z. If x is recovered, then it will be returned to you unless there are other claims. Then it becomes who can prove their claim

Not completely true There are third party dealer registries. And outside Rolex, Patek has a registry and the website specifically says they will not accept a stolen watch report without proof of ownership.

Don't want to overflow this but I was thinking because of the above. Practically, I imagine if there is a register and you were able to re-register as the new owner, then they should not be asking for new proof of ownership in the unfortunate case you have to report the watch as stolen.

My takeaway is a simple receipt or bill of sale is ideal (and a notarized one is the gold standard). Long-standing collectors and US/Europe sellers might be readily understanding, but I thought newer Daytona chasers and Asian sellers might think it is just a hassle. Sending a bank transfer via mobile app for $100k in Singapore can be seen as ordinary in many contexts with a seller wanting a quick peer to peer deal.

[Harry-57]

It's called "buying the seller". I prefer to deal with established companies with track records. If you have any doubt about a watch or the person selling it, there is no doubt. Plenty more to choose from.

[FrançoisCzapek]

But the question has nothing to do with the watch's authenticity.

[996marty]

Are all these questions just a wind up?
I dread to think how many questions you asked before you pulled the pin on the Pateks

[Kevin of Larchmont]

Originally Posted by FrançoisCzapek

But the question has nothing to do with the watch's authenticity.

But the question has everything to do with trust in the seller and accountability from the seller, therefore don’t buy a watch from a “flipper or student or young hobbyist,” buy a watch from an established business with a track record of accountability.

[Calatrava r]

Your email exchanges on the matter should suffice. You can always write up a bill of sale describing the watch with serial #, naming the seller and buyer with addresses, the date of the sale and the price. Only the seller needs to sign. Just email it to your seller so it can be signed and included in the box with watch.

[sgt10p]

I tend to judge people by what I would do if the roles were reversed.

Providing the correct provenance of the watch, receipt / bill of sale is a minimum. I would then assess the person, the explanation and quality of the documents. I would also need to be able to know where that person lived or business premises.

We are talking about thousands of £€$ I presume?

[FrançoisCzapek]

Originally Posted by Calatrava r

Your email exchanges on the matter should suffice.

No one in Asia uses e-mail to trade watches.

[FrançoisCzapek]

Originally Posted by sgt10p

I would also need to be able to know where that person lived

This one sounds impossible. Even in a place with law and order like Singapore, why would anyone who owns Rolexes reveal his address and set himself up for a break-in?

Also doesn't contribute anything to gauging provenance, or at least not in Asia where the guy in ratty clothes slurping noodles behind you might be a multimillionaire.

[sgt10p]

Originally Posted by FrançoisCzapek

This one sounds impossible. Even in a place with law and order like Singapore, why would anyone who owns Rolexes reveal his address and set himself up for a break-in?



Also doesn't contribute anything to gauging provenance, or at least not in Asia where the guy in ratty clothes slurping noodles behind you might be a multimillionaire.

Ok, so what you going to do if it turns out stolen or a super clone? Because like it or not the question over a receipt is linked to the veracity of the watch.
I'm not sure if you're serious about this, as in are you actually thinking of making a purchase or just in the land of maybe.

[FrançoisCzapek]

Very serious. At least in a place like Singapore, having someone's real name, phone number and bank details goes a long way with the police. There's always a small chance you have a determined scammer who gets a fake ID and buys the phone number of some construction worker, and the scammer shows up with an authentic watch, certificate and box in the service center. This isn't one of the types of actual watch scams that have happened in the past 30 years.

Do you typically exchange personal home addresses when trading watches? Many people would have legitimate reasons to decline.