Who / What Brands Handcrafts Their Mechanical Timepieces?

[enjoythemusic]

With many brands now using quite a bit of (mostly?) CNC machining for plates/bridges, machines for decoration, etc... which manufacturers are still creating and decorating timepieces mainly 'by hand'?

[AltiTudor]

Moritz Grossmann for one.

[FrugalGreubel]

A. Lange & Söhne
Akrivia
Bovet
Grönefeld
Greubel Forsey
Lange & Söhne
MB&F
Petermann Bédat
Roman Gauthier
Simon Brette
Voutilainen

That’s what comes to mind immediately but I’m sure I’m missing a ton.

[c0ll3ct0r]

FP Journe as well

[kunlun]

Ha, it's not so easy to answer your question!

Mostly, things are made using CNC and specialized tools. At the very end, there may be some hand finishing work done.

If you're asking who doesn't use CNC machines, well, you're asking for less precision but a demonstration of traditional watchmaking. I think that's very nice, as long as we are clear about it.

The Struthers do it this way. Good luck buying one of their wonderful watches.

David Walter in the U.S. does it this way. George Daniels invited him to use a co-axial escapement in his hand-made watches. You could ask him to and he'd be delighted to hear from you. He's a very nice person.

There's a small European independent, is it Haldimann, who also uses no CNC?

Benzinger either does work this way or could if asked.

Maybe some others that others will think of.

The GF HandMade1 (and coming HM2 and HM3) are made this way, of course.

[vitalsigns]

Define "mainly 'by hand'"...

What does "mainly" mean?

Time spent by hand?

Fully-laden cost of hand labor relative to total manufacturing cost (including materials)?

What does "by hand" mean? E.g., does a quick pass with a watchmakers dremel (?) count, or must it be hand propelled boxwood polishing?

Some responses here I would instinctively reject, such as Lange and Journe, but we need to understand what you mean.

Clearly, Lange and Journe produce CNC'd movements to start, as do virtually all others (e.g., we can exclude Roger Smith...but nearly everyone else is starting with CNC machines).

[FrugalGreubel]

A lot of good comments about what’s handmade and CNC. I guess I should’ve clarified my list was more about hand finishing than actual handcrafting for the parts themselves. That’s definitely a smaller list and more specialized. Oh and pricey lol.

[cy888]

It would be interesting to see, but perhaps hard to list out, as there are many levels of hand finishing within different calibers of a brand?

[kunlun]

Originally Posted by vitalsigns

Clearly, Lange and Journe produce CNC'd movements to start, as do virtually all others (e.g., we can exclude Roger Smith...but nearly everyone else is starting with CNC machines).

Roger Smith has several CNC machines and certainly his watches start with those.

[Calatrava r]

Dornbluth and Sohn does everything by hand.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by vitalsigns

Define "mainly 'by hand'"...

What does "mainly" mean?

Time spent by hand?

Fully-laden cost of hand labor relative to total manufacturing cost (including materials)?

What does "by hand" mean? E.g., does a quick pass with a watchmakers dremel (?) count, or must it be hand propelled boxwood polishing?

Some responses here I would instinctively reject, such as Lange and Journe, but we need to understand what you mean.

Clearly, Lange and Journe produce CNC'd movements to start, as do virtually all others (e.g., we can exclude Roger Smith...but nearly everyone else is starting with CNC machines).

All excellent questions and points. How much is 'programmed' and walk away, how much is done by hand, etc. Expecting 100% by hand is a BIG ask, yet 90%, 50%...?

So to clarify a bit, let's say... how many parts themselves are created by handcrafting effort (without use of any set-n-forget electronic computers/computation/automation).

I'm not referring to decoration as an R Smith is not an ALS, each has different quantifiable efforts for making the parts themselves versus time taken towards decorating them.

[WatchEater666]

OP you mentioned hand finishing, to what degree? ALS/Patek/FPJ do not spend much time on this.

But someone like Greubel, Voutilainen etc certainly does.

[kunlun]

Originally Posted by Calatrava r

Dornbluth and Sohn does everything by hand.

Dornbluth!!! That's who I was thinking of! Yes, they work without CNC. Thank you.

[kunlun]

Originally Posted by WatchEater666

OP you mentioned hand finishing, to what degree? ALS/Patek/FPJ do not spend much time on this.

But someone like Greubel, Voutilainen etc certainly does.

He meant to ask who doesn't use CNC in making movement plates.

Greubel uses CNC, most independents do, such as Dufour, Roger Smith, Akrivia, etc.

That's why Greubel's HandMade series is special. No CNC.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by kunlun

He meant to ask who doesn't use CNC in making movement plates.

Greubel uses CNC, most independents do, such as Dufour, Roger Smith, Akrivia, etc.

That's why Greubel's HandMade series is special. No CNC.

Many thanks for your help and yes it is a complicated question in 2024 as to what 'degree' a timepiece is made by machines versus crafted by hand.

Perhaps 20 years from now we will 'cheaply' buy a precision CNC machine(s) and make our own timepieces. We could share files on TRF and group-design too. CNC will be nothing special, just like those who 3D print today, we can do our own CNC'ing fine timepieces and sharing designs with others freely.

And this may be why increased handcrafting may be more admired and appreciated 20 years from now. Hi-res scans of today's highly CNC'ed timepieces means we can go even further, and more personalized too. Heck, we could do a 'mash-up' of styles thanks to CNC. Hand made is just that, made by hand.

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This thread was partially spurred due to reading about restoring 100+ year old timekeepers.

[_speedmaster_]

Haldimann and Brivet don’t use CNC.
As mentioned, many of the high-end independents use CNC and their watches are not truly handmade

[llngoc]

GF Handmade 1 as the name implied.

Even Dufour uses spark erosion and is not afraid to disclose it. So it is very difficult to define hand made. And even Patek wants you to believe that they hand finish their movements. But their definition is probably similar to the free range chicken definition. As long as a hand touches it (the chicken feet touched the farm ground), it is hand finished/free range.

[kunlun]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Many thanks for your help and yes it is a complicated question in 2024 as to what 'degree' a timepiece is made by machines versus crafted by hand.

Perhaps 20 years from now we will 'cheaply' buy a precision CNC machine(s) and make our own timepieces. We could share files on TRF and group-design too. CNC will be nothing special, just like those who 3D print today, we can do our own CNC'ing fine timepieces and sharing designs with others freely.

And this may be why increased handcrafting may be more admired and appreciated 20 years from now. Hi-res scans of today's highly CNC'ed timepieces means we can go even further, and more personalized too. Heck, we could do a 'mash-up' of styles thanks to CNC. Hand made is just that, made by hand.

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This thread was partially spurred due to reading about restoring 100+ year old timekeepers.

Good questions are sometimes tricky to ask.

For the future, how about laser finishing that mimics anglage including sharp internal angles and next gen stamped dials that look like perfect guilloché (we're honestly just about there now)?

Real hand making will always be special. Check out the Struthers' IG page to see them document their truly hand made watch, just finished.

[GB-man]

It’s an interesting conversation if you view watches as art. If you view them as instruments less so imho but I completely get the draw.

[kunlun]

Originally Posted by GB-man

It’s an interesting conversation if you view watches as art. If you view them as instruments less so imho but I completely get the draw.

Completely fair, but then your collection is all quartz and this:

https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/ci...er-0100-review

Is the only watch to own.

I mean, other than an Apple watch.

[GB-man]

Originally Posted by kunlun

Completely fair, but then your collection is all quartz and this:

https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/ci...er-0100-review

Is the only watch to own.

I mean, other than an Apple watch.

I see your point.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by GB-man

It’s an interesting conversation if you view watches as art. If you view them as instruments less so imho but I completely get the draw.

Thx GB-Man, and you are right as i tend to view premium timepieces from independents more as an art form. For me, there's a human feeling when looking at a (more) handcrafted movement that is simply not there when looking at ____. The romantic within me desires asking... at what point does all this computerization for creation suck the 'human soul' out of an artistic design?

Instruments: Agree, if we're viewing all this as merely what is the most precise and useable 'wrist instrument', then imho may as well get 'Smart Watch'. Was a early adopter of those, and am sure we all can agree they are very handy for many things. But they have no soul.

[wsrobert]

Originally Posted by c0ll3ct0r

FP Journe as well

Eh. No, not really.

[Yobrooks]

Gronefeld. ! What hand finishing looks like !

Sent from my SM-S918U using Tapatalk

[Crazywis]

Laurent Ferrier is another one

[base924]

I think it was Quill and Pad that had an article, where a metric trying to quantify some of what the core of this discussion is all about: The personal touch from a human in the timepiece.

It seems clear that there is no clear definition of what "handmade" means, since nobody scratches it from their nails :-)

Is it the actual manufacture and production? The finishing? The assembly and regulation? Does case and dial making count? Is it one, two or a team of how many involved? Does it have to be done in the same building and is the paper ownership the most important, in-out house?

It seems to be all about semantics, branding and rumours. Not everything is disclosed. So many little "dirty" truths floating around.

The metric mentioned in the article estimated how many hours is spent by a person on average per timepiece by different brands/watchmakers.
I thought that was in interesting way of seeing it, but also this can be challenged. Would you say rather have a team of 50 persons spending a total of 4000 hours or one watchmaker spending 2000 hours?
It adepends on how you value the labor hours. A master watchmaker or someone like JPH, Anita Porchet counts more for me... That is what you buy, the time of those skilled artisans who has spent years perfecting their craft, acquirering the tools and machines etc.

A guy like Ondrej Berkus makes relatively affordable watches which are truly unique and super creative, but with many sourced parts. I view those as original pieces of art, whereas GF Handmade 1 is something where I dont get the same feeling of unique soul, more a brutal tour de force, which is cool in its own right, but much less personal and no MVP on board...

I very much admire a guy like Christian Lass and his wife Hanne, who is now more or silently doing everything from designing movements, hand engraving, making dial, hands, cases and everything in the movement except for springs, gaskets, rubies, crystals (same as GF) under the same roof. Also of course finishing, assembly, regulating and servicing. Very similar setup to that of Roger Smith, just with fewer people and with the name of the person who actually made it on the dial and movement.
Many personal hours spent on these pieces by two of the most talented people in the world!

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by base924

I think it was Quill and Pad that had an article, where a metric trying to quantify some of what the core of this discussion is all about: The personal touch from a human in the timepiece.

GREAT read, i have it bookmarked....

SJX....

https://watchesbysjx.com/2022/11/wat...-map-2022.html

[EEpro]

Love this graphic