How is buying watches you don’t want different from paying the grey market premium?

[LowFades]

I assume buying directly from the AD gives you more gratification and likely preserves the watch’s resale value longer than going grey. But besides that, isn’t playing that AD game (with no guaranteed success) an equal or even worse off financial decision than going grey?

I’m sure this topic has been debated extensively on here but if it looks like AP wants to go way of Hermes (such as with their handbags) and make you buy other merchandise just to possibly get a watch you want, why not just skip the song and dance and buy grey?

Let me know if there’s something I’m missing.

[Calatrava r]

Used makes sense for AP as the company is all boutique now and without a purchase history it is difficult/impossible to obtain the popular models. At least with Rolex, there is the option to deal with independent ADs and anything is possible then.

[raclaims]

Yes this has been discussed 4 bazillion times.

If you want one piece...just go grey and pay...
If you want a number of pieces...build a relationship.

I use grey and dealers...I tend to use grey for pieces no longer in production tho.

[HMHM]

Because it’s your ASSUMPTION (including many others) that people don’t want the other pieces they buy…
What if a collector wants to collect a range of brands/watches and along the way gets the call for the sought after watches? Not everybody wants only the SS Daytona, RO and Nautilus then rinse and repeat…..

[Henrimontgomery]

Daytona grey
30k

Daytona retail
11k

TT sub black
15k

11+15= 26 < 30

Easy. You can also sell the TT if you want.

[VogelPhoenix]

Originally Posted by Calatrava r

Used makes sense for AP as the company is all boutique now and without a purchase history it is difficult/impossible to obtain the popular models. At least with Rolex, there is the option to deal with independent ADs and anything is possible then.

It seems that people have at least as much success getting their desired model w/o purchase history with AP as they have with Rolex. Quite a few nice RO/ROCs going to first time buyers.

[Rickkk]

Originally Posted by Henrimontgomery

Daytona grey
30k

Daytona retail
11k

TT sub black
15k

11+15= 26 < 30

Easy. You can also sell the TT if you want.

You think someone is getting a Daytona after a TT sub?

[Reign]

Originally Posted by Henrimontgomery

Daytona grey
30k

Daytona retail
11k

TT sub black
15k

11+15= 26 &lt; 30

Easy. You can also sell the TT if you want.

Lol at Daytona as second watch from AD with no relationship.

As Raclaims said, if you want one AP, go grey. If you plan on 5+, start a relationship


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[Vivalas]

I’ve personally never bought a watch just so I could buy a watch. I can’t say for definite but doubt I ever will either.

I bought all my Rolex watches at RRP when they were fairly easy to get. In fact I even got a discount off a BLNR and a hulk. Mainly between 3 and 10 years ago when things were different.

My AP’s have all been bought from AP House and they have never once implied I should buy something. I’m not a big hitter, but I love watches and love the AP brand. I’m sure they know that (and that must help). I’ll enjoy what I have and if something comes along then fantastic, if not it’s not meant to be.

I’ve advised friends against buying Rolexes that they don’t really want. Some that did despite me telling them not to, are now seeing that they can’t sell them, as grey dealers aren’t interested at the moment.

Some watches will always remain hard to get, others with some patience will come.

[dauster]

Originally Posted by LowFades

I assume buying directly from the AD gives you more gratification and likely preserves the watch’s resale value longer than going grey. But besides that, isn’t playing that AD game (with no guaranteed success) an equal or even worse off financial decision than going grey?

I’m sure this topic has been debated extensively on here but if it looks like AP wants to go way of Hermes (such as with their handbags) and make you buy other merchandise just to possibly get a watch you want, why not just skip the song and dance and buy grey?

Let me know if there’s something I’m missing.

I see it this way

1) AP - lovely watches but imo they dont have enough variety for me to justify buying a bunch of watches I don't want, also their heavy hitter pieces like a 16202 is too hard to imo - relationship is not worth it.

2) hermes: I don't really like their clothes - too much branding and all the other items are ridiculously priced. What am I even supposed to buy - seriously saddle for 20k?

3) Patek I like most of their watches across the board and I am enjoying the ones I bought immensly even if I never get a aquanaut or nautilus. Also, love their rare hadncraft relaeses more than anything.

4) Rolex - I like enough of their watches to buy some here and there and also it makes it easier to establish a relationship if patek and rolex are the same AD.

Long story short - it depends entirely on the brand and their offering but I definely enjoy non hot models a lot too and also don't need one specific watch. there are always alternatives

[Vince_76]

Originally Posted by Vivalas

I’ve personally never bought a watch just so I could buy a watch. I can’t say for definite but doubt I ever will either.

I bought all my Rolex watches at RRP when they were fairly easy to get. In fact I even got a discount off a BLNR and a hulk. Mainly between 3 and 10 years ago when things were different.

My AP’s have all been bought from AP House and they have never once implied I should buy something. I’m not a big hitter, but I love watches and love the AP brand. I’m sure they know that (and that must help). I’ll enjoy what I have and if something comes along then fantastic, if not it’s not meant to be.

I’ve advised friends against buying Rolexes that they don’t really want. Some that did despite me telling them not to, are now seeing that they can’t sell them, as grey dealers aren’t interested at the moment.

Some watches will always remain hard to get, others with some patience will come.

100% agree

[srvrf]

Collection goals are important too. Currently I have 3 APs (two from boutique, 1 from former AD) and 2 Pateks (both from former AD). Right now, AP is my best connection and I will try to build my collection that way. My Patek AD lost their status and I don't think I want to start over with a new Patek AD. I'd really love to own a VC again but can't see myself having more than 1 Overseas model. So the relationship aspect with VC will be very hard for me.

So as these companies move towards boutique-only, it is going to be very hard for collectors to have more than a couple of brands in their collections. Very few people will want to "establish relationships" with multiple brands, especially if you have to buy less popular models first. I am thinking collectors will choose the 1-2 brands they want the most and try to build their core collection via boutiques. Then they can use the gray market to get specific watches where a "relationship" isn't possible or practical.

[psm11]

Originally Posted by Henrimontgomery

Daytona grey
30k

Daytona retail
11k

TT sub black
15k

11+15= 26 < 30

Easy. You can also sell the TT if you want.

Forgetting one very important thing -- there is no guarantee after buying less desirable pieces that the AD will ever offer you the watch you want. If all you want is a Daytona just buy grey and it is guaranteed you will have the piece in your hand tomorrow. Play games with the AD and there is no telling when or IF you will even get the piece. Just look at the recent lawsuit against a Patek AD. They strung the guy along and BOOM nothing.

[cascavel]

If you're new to the watch buying game and have no AD or Boutique history you will benefit from having a PHD in mathematics and, at least, a masters in game theory. Perhaps in a few years some application of Artificial Intelligence will be able to answer your question and map a strategy. Until then, go Grey Market.

[Henrimontgomery]

Originally Posted by psm11

Forgetting one very important thing -- there is no guarantee after buying less desirable pieces that the AD will ever offer you the watch you want. If all you want is a Daytona just buy grey and it is guaranteed you will have the piece in your hand tomorrow. Play games with the AD and there is no telling when or IF you will even get the piece. Just look at the recent lawsuit against a Patek AD. They strung the guy along and BOOM nothing.

If the dealer doesn’t give you a watch just sue him (see recent Patek article).

[VogelPhoenix]

Originally Posted by psm11

Play games with the AD and there is no telling when or IF you will even get the piece. Just look at the recent lawsuit against a Patek AD. They strung the guy along and BOOM nothing.

Yeah, but they went above and beyond by stringing him along while knowing for sure there would be nothing for him, ever (supposing the assertions in the lawsuit are true).

[VogelPhoenix]

Originally Posted by cascavel

....you will benefit from having a PHD in mathematics and, at least, a masters in game theory

You may think you're joking, but...

[GW44]

Originally Posted by Vivalas

I’ve personally never bought a watch just so I could buy a watch. I can’t say for definite but doubt I ever will either.

I bought all my Rolex watches at RRP when they were fairly easy to get. In fact I even got a discount off a BLNR and a hulk. Mainly between 3 and 10 years ago when things were different.

My AP’s have all been bought from AP House and they have never once implied I should buy something. I’m not a big hitter, but I love watches and love the AP brand. I’m sure they know that (and that must help). I’ll enjoy what I have and if something comes along then fantastic, if not it’s not meant to be.

I’ve advised friends against buying Rolexes that they don’t really want. Some that did despite me telling them not to, are now seeing that they can’t sell them, as grey dealers aren’t interested at the moment.

Some watches will always remain hard to get, others with some patience will come.

Common sense prevails

Great post Stephen.

Lots of people get sucked into favour trading and buying stuff they don’t really want but I never have and never will. Life is too short to be played like that in my opinion.

And as you said I’m delighted that the team at AP House don’t play those games which is another reason I enjoy interacting with them and, in turn, enlarging my AP collection that I thoroughly enjoy from them.

[Booth9999]

It will come back to but then in the butt in a few years, too many games to play. They kinda killed the desire for there watches from me.

[westoque]

Buying grey isn’t really just about having the piece and being happy though at least for me. I almost bought my first Patek, a 5205G, polished, 1 owner and at a significant discount from retail price. I ultimately didn’t buy it because I want the papers to be in my name. Also, for my collection I really want to be the first owner of my watches and them seeing them passed on to my children. My few c’s.


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[crispyness87]

Originally Posted by Vivalas

I’ve personally never bought a watch just so I could buy a watch. I can’t say for definite but doubt I ever will either.

I bought all my Rolex watches at RRP when they were fairly easy to get. In fact I even got a discount off a BLNR and a hulk. Mainly between 3 and 10 years ago when things were different.

My AP’s have all been bought from AP House and they have never once implied I should buy something. I’m not a big hitter, but I love watches and love the AP brand. I’m sure they know that (and that must help). I’ll enjoy what I have and if something comes along then fantastic, if not it’s not meant to be.

I’ve advised friends against buying Rolexes that they don’t really want. Some that did despite me telling them not to, are now seeing that they can’t sell them, as grey dealers aren’t interested at the moment.

Some watches will always remain hard to get, others with some patience will come.

Well said!

[John Doyle]

Originally Posted by dauster

I see it this way

1) AP - lovely watches but imo they dont have enough variety for me to justify buying a bunch of watches I don't want, also their heavy hitter pieces like a 16202 is too hard to imo - relationship is not worth it.

2) hermes: I don't really like their clothes - too much branding and all the other items are ridiculously priced. What am I even supposed to buy - seriously saddle for 20k?

3) Patek I like most of their watches across the board and I am enjoying the ones I bought immensly even if I never get a aquanaut or nautilus. Also, love their rare hadncraft relaeses more than anything.

4) Rolex - I like enough of their watches to buy some here and there and also it makes it easier to establish a relationship if patek and rolex are the same AD.

Long story short - it depends entirely on the brand and their offering but I definely enjoy non hot models a lot too and also don't need one specific watch. there are always alternatives

Agree 100% with everything you are saying!

[Watch-Geek]

Wanted a Sub, went to an AD, expressed my interest and 18 months later got it.

Never bought anything else, nor was I "pushed" to buy anything else.

Because I was treated like that, all my vintage pieces will go there for a service and any future purchases of possible Anniversary jewelry or a watch for my wife, if she gets into watches, will also be done there.

I didn't want to play the AD games, but will gladly reward how I was treated, even though I don't have any future purchases planned for myself.....yet!!

A friend had the same experience at the same AD for a Batgirl, but he waited 3 years, almost forgotten about it and got a call one day.

Everyone on our local watch forum got their desired pieces the same way.

It might be because we are a small country (Croatia) and have 2 AD'S

The other one DOES tell you if you buy something else you'll get your desired piece FASTER, not that you won't get it



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[APWorldTour]

Originally Posted by Watch-Geek

Wanted a Sub, went to an AD, expressed my interest and 18 months later got it.

Never bought anything else, nor was I "pushed" to buy anything else.

Because I was treated like that, all my vintage pieces will go there for a service and any future purchases of possible Anniversary jewelry or a watch for my wife, if she gets into watches, will also be done there.

I didn't want to play the AD games, but will gladly reward how I was treated, even though I don't have any future purchases planned for myself.....yet!!

A friend had the same experience at the same AD for a Batgirl, but he waited 3 years, almost forgotten about it and got a call one day.

Everyone on our local watch forum got their desired pieces the same way.

It might be because we are a small country (Croatia) and have 2 AD'S

The other one DOES tell you if you buy something else you'll get your desired piece FASTER, not that you won't get it



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Which one did you get it from? Had two very different experiences at the two ADs.

[Watch-Geek]

Originally Posted by APWorldTour

Which one did you get it from? Had two very different experiences at the two ADs.

Mamić

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[Velocity-]

Originally Posted by LowFades

I assume buying directly from the AD gives you more gratification and likely preserves the watch’s resale value longer than going grey. But besides that, isn’t playing that AD game (with no guaranteed success) an equal or even worse off financial decision than going grey?

I’m sure this topic has been debated extensively on here but if it looks like AP wants to go way of Hermes (such as with their handbags) and make you buy other merchandise just to possibly get a watch you want, why not just skip the song and dance and buy grey?

Let me know if there’s something I’m missing.

If you just want that one and only watch, it might be better to bite the bullet and pay the market price.

But I look at it the other way, if you pay the market price but get it from AP Btq/House, you actually get more watches to keep. Would I rather have 1 watch or more than 1 for the same price? I choose the latter.

Can't say the same for Rolex and Patek, which my ADs sell other brands besides them, but AP only sells AP so it is not actually a bad thing. Moreover, the AP boutique in my area has actually been giving new owners a chance to enter the brand unlike the ADs selling Rolex and Patek. Also, the AP Boutique is definitely not into bundling from what I have seen and experienced, but that being said you can't normally waltz in and get a Jumbo or Openwork for your first piece. I have seen however first pieces being Silver 15510s, 37mm ROs etc.

[cascavel]

Originally Posted by VogelPhoenix

You may think you're joking, but...

Not joking, dead serious. Anyone who's wrestled with this issue realizes that it's like herding cats. It involves math, psychology, game theory, statistical analysis and, possibly, some astrology.
As you know, the only certain solution is to go Grey Market, pay up, and sleep at night. For the average schlub, entering the AD or Boutique route is a highway to uncertainty: how much do you have to spend to get an allocation? is my SA lying to me? what if my SA leaves? what if my AD loses it's AP franchise? what if I'm offered something I don't want and I turn it down?
Even if you devote a few hundred thousand to the game, you better have a good supply of Ambien.

[Henrimontgomery]

Originally Posted by cascavel

Not joking, dead serious. Anyone who's wrestled with this issue realizes that it's like herding cats. It involves math, psychology, game theory, statistical analysis and, possibly, some astrology.
As you know, the only certain solution is to go Grey Market, pay up, and sleep at night. For the average schlub, entering the AD or Boutique route is a highway to uncertainty: how much do you have to spend to get an allocation? is my SA lying to me? what if my SA leaves? what if my AD loses it's AP franchise? what if I'm offered something I don't want and I turn it down?
Even if you devote a few hundred thousand to the game, you better have a good supply of Ambien.

OR, you just go, ask for what you want, either get a yes or no, and leave and focus on more important aspect of your life.

It’s all about the choice you make.

[APhound]

I’ve been offered and bought watches that weren’t on my radar but I liked them enough to buy. Weren’t the watches I had requested but happy to have them. I think that’s different than buying watches you don’t want. Why/ who would buy something at this level they don’t want/ like? I’ve turned down more than I’ve bought.


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[ts3]

Originally Posted by Henrimontgomery

OR, you just go, ask for what you want, either get a yes or no, and leave and focus on more important aspect of your life.

It’s all about the choice you make.

This piece of advise isn't very helpful except for the obvious "take a break" part.

Assume newbie asks for a hot watch... A yes? Unlikely. A no? More likely, but it is uncertainty and keeping matters in limbo how ADs are trying to string people along. If newbie does want the hot watch they can go grey or play the AD game in some way or another.

The AD route makes sense for new guys prepared to gobble up anything the AD throws at them. It still works, as demonstrated by the large, often mono-brand collections of 10+ pieces across the catalogue on here (e.g. Patek or Rolex) that have been accumulated from scratch in just a few years.

Great for the ADs, and those who suddenly want a large watch collection, but not for the average Joe.