YOU Decide: The NEW Modern Holy Trinity

[enjoythemusic]

With 2022 upon us, it is also time we within horology decide a new Holy Trinity.

With a nod to many decades ago, let us remember the Old-School Holy Trinity for its relevance when it was first decided upon by ???? many decades ago. Today, two of the old-school trinity are now part of very large corporate entities. The other one has changed quite a bit, with questions about various mass production quality levels instead of always doing the very best possible at ALL times.

With the Old School Holy Trinity now outdated, without a doubt it is time to choose the Modern Holy Trinity of horology. This is 2022 my friends. Virtually everyone i chat with seems to agree MB&F should be part of the Modern Holy Trinity.

Please post below who you feel are the true independent brands that make up the other two Modern Holy Trinity of today's timepiece invention/creation.

Note: This is Round One as we hone in on which three brands are part of the new Modern Holy Trinity.

[btwistround]

fp journe
czapek
h moser

[ChetBaker]

VC, Lange, Chopard

[mrN]

Richard Mille
Greubel Forsey
Mb&f


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[edyu]

Originally Posted by mrN

Richard Mille
Greubel Forsey
Mb&f

Excellent Choices. I agree with you wholehearted especially since OP said Modern. I'm partial to FPJ but these 3 are on top (especially in pricing).

[DoctorA]

Great thread!
I suggest adding a poll, choosing three brands
To me (I’m no particular order) it’s:

FP Journe
H. Moser & Cei
AP (IMHO) it’s still in the holly trinity )

A runner up is Grand Seiko (yes I know! But their dials, cases and details are crazy!!)

Your question is about INDEPENDENT brands so can’t pick ALS!!

[_speedmaster_]

I'm putting a lot of weight to brands that moved along horology through technical innovation. I left out FPJ and DeBethune as they are currently not true independents.

MB&F
Urwerk
Greubel Forsey

[djnick]

Originally Posted by _speedmaster_

I'm putting a lot of weight to brands that moved along horology through technical innovation. I left out FPJ and DeBethune as they are currently not true independents.

MB&F
Urwerk
Greubel Forsey

Doesn't Debetune make all their movements, dials, straps etc? They have many patents as well

[_speedmaster_]

Originally Posted by djnick

Doesn't Debetune make all their movements, dials, straps etc? They have many patents as well

Yes they do. They would have been first on my list. However, OP stated true independents. DeBethune is owned by Watchbox. This is also why I didn't include FPJ.

[Ichiran]

Patek Philippe, Audemars Piguet and Vacheron Constantin are still The Trinity in 2022. No change to world order...

Lange is somewhat close but their sports line is in infancy.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

Patek Philippe, Audemars Piguet and Vacheron Constantin are still The Trinity in 2022. No change to world order...

Lange is somewhat close but their sports line is in infancy.

Thanks for your sentiment, yet to be fair they really no longer apply today. i do respect what they stood/stand for **at the time of whoever decided very long ago** what the (now Old School) Holy Trinity was.

Times they have indeed changed. Progress marches on and all that. Plus i feel it is time WE ENTHUSIASTS decide who has earned being part of the Modern Holy Trinity.

Once again thanks for chiming in, and thanks for supporting the 'old guard' of horology.

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Thanks for your sentiment, yet to be fair they really no longer apply today. i do respect what they stood/stand for **at the time of whoever decided very long ago** what the (now Old School) Holy Trinity was.

Times they have indeed changed. Progress marches on and all that. Plus i feel it is time WE ENTHUSIASTS decide who has earned being part of the Modern Holy Trinity.

Once again thanks for chiming in, and thanks for supporting the 'old guard' of horology.

I'm also an enthusiast and I don't think your statement on the big 3 is fair. The Trinity has stood the test of time and they are still as popular as ever with great watches released through these times, latest being the 5750P just 2 weeks ago with 4 patents. And they don't just make 50 to 200 watches annually only where resources can be funnelled into flawless finishing.

I agree with you times have changed though, but they are still Kings today with evolution and tweaks throughout their history. That's why imo they are still at the perch in 2022.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

I'm also an enthusiast and I don't think your statement on the big 3 is fair. The Trinity has stood the test of time and they are still as popular as ever with great watches released through these times, latest being the 5750P just 2 weeks ago with 4 patents. And they don't just make 50 to 200 watches annually only where resources can be funnelled into flawless finishing.

I agree with you times have changed though, but they are still Kings today with evolution and tweaks throughout their history. That's why imo they are still at the perch in 2022.

Good points, though imho we need to give recognition to today's true independents. The old establishment is welcome to enjoy its long history decided upon by ??? long ago and celebrate each company's continued accomplishments.

I look forward to the Modern Holy Trinity of horology.

BTW, if this was cars there was probably a Holy Trinity in the 1960s, yet exotic car production and performance manufacturing has changed since then. New companies not in business way back when are now taking the forefront. Ferrari is great, still innovating, yet....

Hope this better clarifies things. So again, yes let's celebrate the old guard, yet also give recognition to those taking horology into Modern times.

[chunk2020]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Good points, though imho we need to give recognition to today's true independents. The old establishment is welcome to enjoy its long history decided upon by ??? long ago and celebrate each company's continued accomplishments.

I look forward to the Modern Holy Trinity of horology.

BTW, if this was cars there was probably a Holy Trinity in the 1960s, yet exotic car production and performance manufacturing has changed since then. New companies not in business way back when are now taking the forefront. Ferrari is great, still innovating, yet....

Hope this better clarifies things. So again, yes let's celebrate the old guard, yet also give recognition to those taking horology into Modern times.

Perhaps instead of modern trinity one would say Indy trinity or perhaps you mean Modern in the artistic sense.. so a “Contemporary (and independent) Trinity” would be more suited.

We’re already getting more niche, which takes away from the broad royalty of it.

I like your thinking though


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[_speedmaster_]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

I'm also an enthusiast and I don't think your statement on the big 3 is fair. The Trinity has stood the test of time and they are still as popular as ever with great watches released through these times, latest being the 5750P just 2 weeks ago with 4 patents. And they don't just make 50 to 200 watches annually only where resources can be funnelled into flawless finishing.

I agree with you times have changed though, but they are still Kings today with evolution and tweaks throughout their history. That's why imo they are still at the perch in 2022.

Fair points. I will say that being popular shouldn't be a consideration, otherwise Rolex would sit atop. The general public follows trends and marketing, not true watchmaking prowess.

I also think AP hasn't done enough over the past 20 years to keep it seated in a Trinity. From technical achievements, they have been outclassed by Lange. They are also much too reliant on the RO line.

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by _speedmaster_

Fair points. I will say that being popular shouldn't be a consideration, otherwise Rolex would sit atop. The general public follows trends and marketing, not true watchmaking prowess.

I also think AP hasn't done enough over the past 20 years to keep it seated in a Trinity. From technical achievements, they have been outclassed by Lange. They are also much too reliant on the RO line.

I agree popularity (demand) is not the only consideration but it has to be at least one of the determinants, otherwise these Big 3 will not be able to continue as a going concern today.

Moving on to the AP and Lange argument, I remember reading an article that the horological trinity was a concept coined by Swiss journalists in the 60s/70s. Lange ceased operations after WW2 and is German, which probably explained why it was not included then. Along the same vein, when AP was included in the trinity, it does not have the RO line yet, or RO was not really popular in the 70s after it came into existence in 1972. They were there presumably on merit with high complications and innovative (open-work) watches.

Fast forward to 2022, we could of course make a case of Lange over AP due to advancements made by Lange over the past 2-3 decades. AP proponents could also argue that Lange does not have a sport line until 2019, and is Lange self-sustainable without Richemont's support.

The Trinity concept is a subjective one which is why we see many determinants in this thread alone. Nothing is stopping us from buying the brands we love though. Cheers.

[chunk2020]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

I'm also an enthusiast and I don't think your statement on the big 3 is fair. The Trinity has stood the test of time and they are still as popular as ever with great watches released through these times, latest being the 5750P just 2 weeks ago with 4 patents. And they don't just make 50 to 200 watches annually only where resources can be funnelled into flawless finishing.

I agree with you times have changed though, but they are still Kings today with evolution and tweaks throughout their history. That's why imo they are still at the perch in 2022.

Hear hear


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[Krash]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

Patek Philippe, Audemars Piguet and Vacheron Constantin are still The Trinity in 2022. No change to world order...

I agree.


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[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by Krash

I agree.

If i may ask, am curious of your age?

After various chats, it seems, in some respects, this might also be an older generation versus younger generation situation. Reminds me of my recent discussions with various hi-fi enthusiasts concerning stereo home audio playback versus modern immersivephiles.

Old habits die hard and all that, plus, sure, some fear change. Perhaps longtime herd mentality is now taking its toll and, thus, keeping a closed (minded) system going long after its expiration date. This is not a negative about age per se, am simply trying to best understand the situation in 1960, production numbers back then, how it all started and by whom, etc... that initiated the (now outdated) Old School Holy Trinity.

So we need to honor the past, absolutely. Yet also realize technology and the ability for human handcrafted creation has greatly changed since the 1960s. Am a bit surprised that some fear change, the 1960s is a long bygone era.

[Krash]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

If i may ask, am curious of your age?

After various chats, it seems, in some respects, this might also be an older generation versus younger generation situation. Reminds me of my recent discussions with various hi-fi enthusiasts concerning stereo home audio playback versus modern immersivephiles.

Old habits die hard and all that, plus, sure, some fear change. Perhaps longtime herd mentality is now taking its toll and, thus, keeping a closed (minded) system going long after its expiration date. This is not a negative about age per se, am simply trying to best understand the situation in 1960, production numbers back then, how it all started and by whom, etc... that initiated the (now outdated) Old School Holy Trinity.

So we need to honor the past, absolutely. Yet also realize technology and the ability for human handcrafted creation has greatly changed since the 1960s. Am a bit surprised that some fear change, the 1960s is a long bygone era.

I'm a technologist & software developer. Over the course of my career, I have produced software that has disrupted entire markets and industries. It’s funny that someone would portray me as being fearful of change.

I do recoginize there are a lot of extremely impressive watch brands producing absolutely stunning timepieces, no doubt. Many of these brands are producing products on a completely different level.

• Jacob & Co
• Greubel Forsey
• FP Journe
• A. Lange & Sohne
• Richard Mille
• H. Moser

I'm always quick to say, "let's look forward, not backwards." However, in this case, I think history matters, and it matters a lot.

• Patek Phillip founded in 1839.
• Audemars Piguet in 1875.
• Vacheron Constantin in 1755.

I just think the Holy Trinity is still the Holy Trinity, at least for now...

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by Krash

I'm a technologist & software developer. Over the course of my career, I have produced software that has disrupted entire markets and industries. It’s funny that someone would portray me as being fearful of change.

First, bravo and THANK YOU!!! Am all for 'disrupters' who have an idea and go out there are take the risks. Without a doubt it's not an 'easy path' and THANK YOU for doing it. BIG TIME!

During my talks with quite a few others, my mind somehow seemed to compile that the older gen likes status quo, whereas the younger 'kids' are far more openminded (to change). Again, that is/was my personal perception.

(Said in good friendly humor) i'll let you slide on answering the age question.

See, here's where we REALLY need a meetup in FL. And so yes, am doing a TRF meetup in TPA during Feb (look for new thread).

[Nav01L]

Originally Posted by Krash

I do recoginize there are a lot of extremely impressive watch brands producing absolutely stunning timepieces, no doubt. Many of these brands are producing products on a completely different level.

• Jacob & Co
• Greubel Forsey
• FP Journe
• A. Lange & Sohne
• Richard Mille
• H. Moser

This list is interesting because it mixes three brands that are very good at marketing the overall package of their products, but have modern (generous term for widely cnc reliant, lazy and loveless, not to use a third “L” word that ends on ackluster) watchmaking on the one side, with two other brands that have excellent watchmaking that’s ineptly marketed.

Only FPJ seems to really strike the balance between both of these disciplines well, with a very nicely tied together brand story, a distinctive design, excellent communication, opportunistic but effective distribution and credible watchmaking (with good enough but not stellar finishing).

[SoylentGreenChi]

Great thread!

My pick:

Richard Mille
Greubel Forsey
Audemars Piguet

My spouse’s pick:
Greubel Forsey
FP Journe
A. Lange & Sohne

Despite being on my list, I do not own and do not anticipate ever owning a Richard Mille or Greubel Forsey. Surely would be nice, though!


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[GoingPlaces]

Modern or old I don't think you can have this discussion without Patek, innovative, broad market reach (in terms of offerings) and highly (probably the most) relevant. Still the king and leader.

Mine would be FPJ, Greubel Forsey, and Patek.

[Screwly]

Can we do a holy Trinity of watches that we can actually get at retail

[Bearxj86]

Moderate to high level production for "classic" design trinity:
1) Patek
2) AP
3) Journe
4) Lange (Honorable mention)
5) VC (Honorable mention)

Top tier classical design trinity (if money is no object and finishing is king):
1) Dufour
2) Gruebel
3) Variety of independents (Roger Smith, Kari, Gronefeld etc.)

Top trinity of "special" material, "special design"
1) MB&F
2) Debethune
3) Urwerk

Debatable hype:
1) Richard Mille
2) Hublot
3) Ming

[chunk2020]

Originally Posted by bearxj86

Moderate to high level production for "classic" design trinity:
1) Patek
2) AP
3) Journe
4) Lange (Honorable mention)
5) VC (Honorable mention)

Top tier classical design trinity (if money is no object and finishing is king):
1) Dufour
2) Gruebel
3) Variety of independents (Roger Smith, Kari, Gronefeld etc.)

Top trinity of "special" material, "special design"
1) MB&F
2) Debethune
3) Urwerk

Debatable hype:
1) Richard Mille
2) Hublot
3) Ming

I think this is the best of the lot..

I’d be inclined to put Trinity Cat1 as Patek and then Trinity Cat2 as journe, ALS, Vacheron and AP as secondary within that but defo in that top group.

They are all awesome but AP is basically RO and offshores and nothing much else, journe is rather recently recognised (though loved in the shadows for years) and tiny in comparison. ALS excellent though I remember a mate working in Patek salon talking me out of one as they “lacked soul” .. I don’t think that but I can see it.. defo deserves to be in there.

Should we also a consider that given production numbers.. Dufour, roger smith, forsey etc are basically novelty brands, if the internet didn’t exist you’d never have heard never mind seen a pic of them.

Shouts for Moser, RM, czapek etc.. I’m not sure they’re serious for trinity material

Everyone remembers when panerai was hot (still lovely aesthetic), when breitling ruled the skies and Frank muller was flash.

Fashions evolve, style is eternal. How many of these brands mentioned were in the mix in 20 years ago, 10 years ago… and, if you were backing a few horses, who’d you bet on in 10 and 20 year’s time??


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[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by chunk2020

Fashions evolve, style is eternal. How many of these brands mentioned were in the mix in 20 years ago, 10 years ago… and, if you were backing a few horses, who’d you bet on in 10 and 20 year’s time??

Excellent question!

Originally Posted by chunk2020

Perhaps instead of modern trinity one would say Indy trinity or perhaps you mean Modern in the artistic sense.. so a “Contemporary (and independent) Trinity” would be more suited.

We’re already getting more niche, which takes away from the broad royalty of it.

I like your thinking though

So we really need a few categories, perhaps?

Originally Posted by GB-man

They say many things.

[kimodaz]

Lange
FP Journe
Czapek

[MostlyCloudy]

why isnt the breguet marine talked about more?