VC Overseas vs PF Tonda vs Moser Streamliner vs Czapek: Rank them?

[Djoker48]

The 15202 and the Nautilus are out of reach. Yet the need for an integrated bracelet watch is strong. Narrowed it down to the following 4 options. How would you rank them? My pros and cons of each (I would buy any one on the secondary)

1. VC Overseas 4520 Blue

+ I would finally enter the Holy Trinity of watchmaking (currently all Rolex)
+ That blue is the best in the game
+ Geneva Seal

- Prices of the 4520 blue are still elevated. Could go for the 4500 but the taper of the new bracelet is very important to me
- The bracelet doesn’t appear as impressive I.e the AP bracelet shines like a “disco ball” on the wrist. It truly is a thing of beauty. The finishing on the VC is obviously top tier but perhaps a bit too subtle for my liking

2. PF Tonda Microrotor Salmon No-Date

+ The thinness is exquisite. Closest feeling watch to a Nautilus basis the thinness alone
+ The micro rotor movement is amazing and perhaps a bit more advanced than the others
+ Platinum Bezel

- Brand cachet not as strong as the VC
- Bracelet also not as nice as the AP

3. Moser Streamliner Salmon

+ The sexiest watch on this list basis looks alone. Looks like Dragon Scales
+ Very nice movement finishing as well
+ Nobody does a Fume dial quite like Moser
+ The Bracelet glimmers akin to the AP

- Brand cachet not VC level
- A bit thick

4. Czapek Antarctique Salmon

+ Very nice feeling on the wrist
+ Bracelet Glimmers

- People smarter than me have mentioned that the finishing on Czapek bracelets and movements aren’t worth of the price. I can’t opine here but would love thoughts
- Don’t like the typography
- Too similar to the Christopher Ward Twelve (given they shared the same designer)

[unsprung]

Just some additions you didn‘t mention, but I find to be important. Overall there‘s imho no bad choice here. They‘re all nice watches, with different strengths and weaknesses.

VC:
+ Best allrounder of the 4. Add a few extra straps and this is a perfect one watch collection. You can wear it everyday to any kind of occasions.
+/- Not much of a wow-factor except for the blue dial maybe
- The movement is good, but not really special to look at

PF:
+/- the finest, most dressy option. At the same time the least sporty option.

Moser:
+ the most extraordinary case and dial
+- There‘s a risk of oversaturation after a few month
- The finishing quality and overall luxury appearence on moser watches is lower compared to the others mentioned here

Czapek:
- New brand with highest uncertainty of where the brand is heading (even though there‘s some questionmarks with PF aswell). Also no real long term experiences yet
+ not just a flat dial
+ movement layout the most interesting of the 4

My personal choice would be the VC or Czapek, but as I said, no bad choice here imho, maybe just the possibility to make the wrong choice for you personally.

[Chrasmus]

I currently own a Czapek and a Streamliner, and I am waiting for my call for the 4520. They are all so different, but if I were forced to choose just one it would be the Streamliner - for its unique and different look.

[vliberman]

Given that u introduced brand cachet into equation and your perception that VC is superior on the list, you should go for VC.

I think none of this brands has any cachet outside of small group of watch enthusiasts and within the group of watch enthusiasts they are equal.

[gm58]

Would be between the PF or Czapek for me.

PF - thinner option and wears very well on the wrist but has a very small crown (doesnt look proportional)

Czapek - amazing movement architecture but slightly thicker at 10mm+. Also has swappable options between rubber, leather and bracelet (but has to be from Czapek themselves and not cheap)

Between the two, would go for Czapek with the more interesting dial (the PF dial patterns are wayy too fine/small and you cant really appreciate it with your bare eyes, will need a loupe) and cool movement structure

VC wears just too big and the Moser is bit more unconventional (not for my taste)

[swish77]

VC blue by a mile. More interesting design all around, and beautiful movement to look at.

I’d get the previous generation and pre-2021. The blue dials were quite different then and much more beautiful. I’ve owned both. The taper of the newer bracelet is not significant enough of a change for the extra money, IMHO.

[Bmats]

Of those, I’d get the VC 4520–I briefly thought about both PF and Czapek but ended up getting a blue dial overseas. It hasn’t disappointed one bit. Of course, it was just aesthetics preferences—I vastly preferred the case and dial on the VC. I movement of course is nicer to look at on the Czapek, but I don’t look at movements all that often. And I think I was probably swayed about because VC is a stronger brand the Czapek (although who knows what that means in the future).

On the Moser, I’d probably have a harder time deciding if it was between the new blue enamel small seconds streamliner and the overseas. I personally want both, but probably would take the VC because of versatility. But the enamel dial is amazing looking in pictures.

[ap1]

I’ve had all these. Pf is out, small crown. VC I moved the 4500 was a bit large for me. Waiting on 4520 so I hope that is solved there with nicer taper etc. I felt the old bracelet was too wide. (Not quite as bad as alpine eagle but close). Moser and czapek for me I enjoy immensely. I continue to own both and really enjoy them. Resale headed in toilet for both. All these companies too near sighted with Covid boom and now that things are normalizing they are too expensive as these cos got too optimistic on pricing and what the market is willing to bear longer term, they are still enthusiasts brands. And we are a shrewd bunch.

[Audevache]

I've tried on the Streamliner, and really didn't like the case shape that much IRL. Have never tried on PF and Czapek, but the brands don't really speak to me either. Plus, PF is apparently for sale - so uncertain future for the brand.

As 7900v owner, I say go Overseas. It is such an amazing watch, quick strap change totally changing the look and feel, 150m water resistance.

Regarging the bracelet finish, yes it is no RO (which I own as well, and the Genta bracelet is truly is a work of art) but the finishing is still amazing, with so many different nuances of polish in the different pieces. And you are getting the great 2x2mm quick adjustment, which AP still doesn't do. I suggest watching one of Tim Mosso's review on the Overseas, he goes into quite some details on the bracelet finishing.

[Bmats]

Originally Posted by ap1

I’ve had all these. Pf is out, small crown. VC I moved the 4500 was a bit large for me. Waiting on 4520 so I hope that is solved there with nicer taper etc. I felt the old bracelet was too wide. (Not quite as bad as alpine eagle but close). Moser and czapek for me I enjoy immensely. I continue to own both and really enjoy them. Resale headed in toilet for both. All these companies too near sighted with Covid boom and now that things are normalizing they are too expensive as these cos got too optimistic on pricing and what the market is willing to bear longer term, they are still enthusiasts brands. And we are a shrewd bunch.

Do you think Moser is too optimistic on pricing given their 3k production per year? Their limited streamliners sold out, and the new not limited small seconds has orders so that new ones won’t be delivering until 2025–as I understand it. Yes, seems a hefty price at $30k+ for a steel integrated sports watch, but the enamel dial adds a bunch. Would $25-27k be better; sure. But I’m not sure if they’re going to a bunch immediately available on the secondary market for 20% less.

Beyond that, their pioneer line and heritage line have offerings in the low to mid-ish 10s.

Yeah, if you bought a gold endeavor, you’ll take a hit on it for selling it. But it doesn’t really strike me as unreasonable that a gold watch would be in the low-20s.

[ap1]

Originally Posted by Bmats

Do you think Moser is too optimistic on pricing given their 3k production per year? Their limited streamliners sold out, and the new not limited small seconds has orders so that new ones won’t be delivering until 2025–as I understand it. Yes, seems a hefty price at $30k+ for a steel integrated sports watch, but the enamel dial adds a bunch. Would $25-27k be better; sure. But I’m not sure if they’re going to a bunch immediately available on the secondary market for 20% less.

Beyond that, their pioneer line and heritage line have offerings in the low to mid-ish 10s.

Yeah, if you bought a gold endeavor, you’ll take a hit on it for selling it. But it doesn’t really strike me as unreasonable that a gold watch would be in the low-20s.

Idk, being sold out to dealer network and to end customer are two different things. My sense is these are available from ADs. They may not show inventory on their website but if you ask that’s another thing. I have real experience with resale, check my posts. Pricing is adjusting quick. Ask resellers and the values are shocking. Big disconnect between ask and what these forum guys will pay. 1/2 just say flat out no. Also I feel the new releases and actual deliveries of those watches has gotten WAY too long. Customers no longer willing to agree then wait 12-18 mos for their watches. They are backing out of those commitments. So then what, ADs probably retrade their orders from the manufactures. I don’t really know enough about that but I do know customers no longer cool with those waits. Other watches become available or they take trips and stuff then say no to their preorder. I think this is happening now with some of the brands mentioned here. Just my thoughts. They are all less liquid in this environment and I’m not sure things will return to the last few years anytime soon. It was all unsustainable.


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[RolexBHR]

VC
Moser
PF
Czapek

[ChetBaker]

Moser (chrono!)
VC (4520)
.
.
.
.
.

[FrugalGreubel]

Moser
Vacheron (this would be my first choice if they changed it to 39mm)
Czapek
PF

[mongrelnomoad]

The apparent “lower quality” of the Czapek is nothing to do with the craftsmanship, but rather misunderstood design decisions. It’s supposed to be sharp and angular on the edges, and soft and sculpted otherwise - there is bevelling on the rear of the bracelet (for comfort) but not on the front. Likewise with the movement the decoration is pared back to let the dramatic architecture sing.

I have one of the first Czapek Antarctiques, and three and a half years later, it remains (by far) my most worn watch, and the quality is on par with all those others mentioned.

My ranking would be:

Czapek
PF
Moser
Overseas (sorry but I find them bulbous and just not quite right on the wrist).

[charger_vital]

1 Czapek (hard not to wear it, people ask me about all the time, can feel a bit flashy at times)
2 PF ( beautiful but can feel too formal vs sporty… quite delicate looking)
3 VC (solid watch… nothing wrong with it. Technically trinity… but let’s be honest it’s nowhere near the other two and not really a showstopper on its own. I’d still take it over most Rolex tho).
4 Moser (bracelet is cool. The case is not. Nice watch but a lousy integration design)


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[Pw92676]

I think all the watches on your list are nice but I get the sense you would always be pining for an AP/nautilus as you seem to compare the watches rather than appreciate them for what they are. My thought would be get a Tissot prx or Christopher ward 12…save the rest and soon move into what you really want.

[tigerpac]

Moser blue enamel small seconds would be the first I'd go for if that's on your radar. Salmon is great though too. The brand is approachable and seems to embrace collectors.

VC is safest as long as it wears well on your wrist. You can't go wrong there. Especially if you don't have to deal with their boutiques.

Parmigiani is beautiful and crazy underrated.

Czapek is very nice as well but I'd put that last if pressed.

[ts3]

Hard to pick a winner for me. Some thoughts in alphabetical order...

- Czapek has me slightly bored except for the movement
- Moser bracelet is great, don't mind the integration, but the case is quite thick and I am not impressed by the movement
- PF looks more special to me than the Czapek albeit less sporty if that is a concern
- VC is too big for me all around, design choices feel forced, and the result is not beautiful in my eyes

As you are considering the VC you could get a 15300 black (don't like the blue there) or 15500/510 rather than a more expensive 15202 and have a much better looking watch IMO. I honestly don't know which I'd pick except it wouldn't be a third series Overseas. For my money I won't get any of them I am afraid.

The one that has me intrigued is the RG C no matter how quirky it is. There is a salmon with integrated bracelet but I prefer some of the rubber strap variants.

[Emery]

FWIW VC boutique advised me a few months back that you can purchase the 4520v bracelet separately and it would fit on a 4500v.

[Nathan_]

Since purchasing a VC overseas the Tonda & Czapek have both interested me, so can relate to your dilemma. I find the Overseas extremely comfortable (7.25" wrist) on the rubber bracelet and what its on 90% of the time.

[GB-man]

I’d get a 15510st instead but that’s me. If not I like them in the order you presented them. And would only entertain options 1,2.

[huncho]

Originally Posted by Pw92676

I think all the watches on your list are nice but I get the sense you would always be pining for an AP/nautilus as you seem to compare the watches rather than appreciate them for what they are. My thought would be get a Tissot prx or Christopher ward 12…save the rest and soon move into what you really want.

Originally Posted by GB-man

I’d get a 15510st instead but that’s me. If not I like them in the order you presented them. And would only entertain options 1,2.

i agree

get a non jumbo RO and forget about the rest of that list. settling for a watch in this price bracket is a huge mistake because it's gonna be extremely costly to get out of if you're not feeling it, especially with that list. if you're only set on a jumbo/nautilus then i'd go with the VC, it's the most timeless of the 4

[Carguy87]

I’d say in order:

VC
Moser
Tonda
Czapek

I will concur with the others though that if you want that “bling” factor (and the accompanying recognition) of an AP then just wait until you can swing one because it’s such a different watch. I’m currently looking to add a VC as soon as funds allow precisely because it isn’t as well known or attracts as much attention as a RO. If you like that (or want that wow factor with this piece) settling for less will likely leave you regretting it instead of enjoying an awesome piece because make no mistake all four are very nice in their own ways.

[AlyRba]

I have owned or handled all 4. Comparing Antarctique time-and-date, Streamliner Center Seconds, Overseas 4520/4500, and Tonda PF micro-rotor.

Wearability: Czapek and Moser followed by PF. VC is ungainly on medium to small wrists. If you have large wrists, then you can ignore this.

Movement: Czapek, PF, and VC. Czapek has the most interesting architecture here. Moser finishing, although nice, is not at the level of the price they are asking.

Dial: Czapek (Passage De Drake dials) and Moser (I’d go with Green instead of Salmon). VC dial is overrated and has too much of a sunburst effect for my taste. PF dial has too much empty space.

Bracelet: Moser and VC. Czapek bracelet’s lack of chamfers, although an intentional choice by the brand, doesn’t make sense to me. Also, the bracelet-to-case connection is not as flawless as the VC.

Resale: VC. Moser and Czapek are hard to move unless you got decent discount at time of buying. PF will probably take the most hit in the long term.

Value at retail: VC seems priced appropriately as it is competing with Royal Oak 41mm. I feel both the Moser and Czapek should have been priced $19-$20k as an overall package. PF pricing seems ok but a bit high considering the brand positioning.

Overall: For me, how the watch wears and how the dial and bracelet look on the wrist are the most important factors. Despite few question marks on Czapek (lack of bracelet chamfers, bracelet case integration not great, and rhodium indices instead of white gold at that price), it will be my first choice here. I know quite a few compromises but what I can say. The wearability is superb and the Passage De Drake dials are a joy to look at with the pattern and light play. The rubber strap is also very comfortable. Moser will be my second choice. The bracelet is a joy to wear and look at. Moser dials are also nice with the signature Moser fume effect. Wouldn’t choose PF as the dial is just too plain for my liking. Plus, the bracelet on PF is a little boring and old school looking. Also wouldn’t choose the VC as the watch wears too big and the dial is not that great, at least to me.

For me, the Overseas and Royal Oak 41mm are competing products here. Two watches that are actual alternative to them currently in that price are the new Streamliner Small Seconds and the Alpine Eagle XPS. As I mentioned above, both the Czapek Antarctique and Moser Streamliner Center Seconds should have been priced at $19k-$20k.

For transparency, I have an Antarctique and would be adding the Alpine Eagle XPS (when Chopard adds another dial color besides the current pink Salmon) and the Streamliner Center Seconds (when it is supposedly reintroduced later this year with the Green dial and new Moser transparent text). Not a big fan of the Moser Small Seconds (great looking movement but dial pattern is not to my taste, plus like the PF too much empty space). And yes, all these choices would exist in the same collection for me along with a Royal Oak Jumbo and 38mm chrono (if I am able to get them at retail in future by a miracle).

[WatchEater666]

I would not go with any of those if I wanted a Royal Oak. I have spent a lot of time with all of them and none come close to the same feeling, or awesome bracelet.

AP pricing has fallen now used to not ridiculous levels, so I’d just get one if I felt like it. Just be aware, the RO does not look good with wear and is a total scratch magnet. I wish the ceramic ones were more obtainable.

[charger_vital]

Originally Posted by WatchEater666

I would not go with any of those if I wanted a Royal Oak. I have spent a lot of time with all of them and none come close to the same feeling, or awesome bracelet.

AP pricing has fallen now used to not ridiculous levels, so I’d just get one if I felt like it. Just be aware, the RO does not look good with wear and is a total scratch magnet. I wish the ceramic ones were more obtainable.

I would agree that if you really want a RO, then get that.

I have also spent a lot of time with all of them. I like the RO a lot. But the 15300 / 15202 / 16202 are the only models I’d consider getting. The 15400 and up do not look or wear as nice as the Czapek or the PF. I find that the thickness of the more recent RO models totally takes away from the aesthetic of the watch and makes it look rather ordinary. But I would still favor them over the VC and the Moser.


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[unsprung]

I do understand, why some people say you should get a RO, if you want a RO. But I do not really agree on getting a 41mm RO even though you want a jumbo. As a current 15202 owner and former owner of a 41mm RO, in my opinion this is as much „settling“ as getting one of the other 4 instead. Yes, the 41mm RO does have more of a „bling“ factor than your 4 alternatives, but it‘s just so much bigger and less elegant than the jumbo and also compared to the Czapek or PF. You can of course still take it into consideration, but be aware that it‘s a lot different and will probably not give you the same satisfaction, as the one you really want.

[Loosetoe]

1. VC - Gorgeous Watch if your wrist is larger than 7". I owned this watch and it was just too big for me. If there was a 38-39mm variant, I would adore this watch.
2.Moser Streamliner - I own the green dial and love the size (I have a 6 5/8 or so wrist). The case and bracelet are awesome. Case is a bit chunky and the clasp is a bit "bitey". I do not care for the brown dial. The blue enamel is awesome, but too much of a premium IMO. They put out a teaser today for a new dial color, but this new color nonsense is getting tiresome to be honest.
3. Czapek - I own the 40.5. Its fine. It's not as inspiring as the watches above to me. the bracelet is the issue. It just feels cheap. It is angular and blocky with little flow.
4. PF - I really wanted to like this watch, but after trying it on multiple times, I just could not. The bracelet does not taper and the PF at the clasp just looks odd. The indices on the dial are too small and the logo is just not appealing in my opinion. The dial colors they do are really nice though, as is the bezel.

[enjoythemusic]

So many variables and each has its' merits. May as well get them all and enjoy your time :)