PANERAI 2019: The Beginning of a New Scam Era!

[crazycarlitos]

Yeah I am familiar with that thread.

I also read about the p5000 movement on various sites.

Calling the p5000 as a scam is a far reach imo.

[Nav01L]

What’ll be interesting with this - as the OP rightly states - very ambitious pricing is whether it’s sustainable. Mind you a year or so ago the brand lowered its princes across the board for the existing watches and one can still get significant discounts, so this new move into the close to 20k category is really brave on their part. It comes with a fair bit of risk and chances are not 0 that we’ll soon be laughing our backsides off when we pick these watches up at 50% discounts from our ADs... or, perhaps, they may have learned their lesson and go forward by just not making any more than 10-15 a year of each model. Still not sure that’ll make the watches super desirable in light of the competition, but at least the exclusivity would warrant some of the expense.

[Panerol Forte]

'Curiosity killed the cat"

I just went where no Paneristi should ever go!... not even a new one like me!... I was curious to see what was the outcome of Jean-Marc-Pontroué leadership at Roger Dubuis... I thought it could give me an insight into the future of Panerai. I just came back, and I brought with me a proof of my hellish trip. My eyes are still hurting!

I should warn you though that the images I am posting are not for the faint hearted. Watch them at your own risk!

P.S.: This is a small sample of what I have seen.

[synequano]

Never thought I'd need this meme in a thread about Panerai or should I call it Rogecine Duburai???

[Cru Jones]

Originally Posted by Panerol Forte

'Curiosity killed the cat"

I just went where no Paneristi should ever go!... not even a new one like me!... I was curious to see what was the outcome of Jean-Marc-Pontroué leadership at Roger Dubuis... I thought it could give me an insight into the future of Panerai. I just came back, and I brought with me a proof of my hellish trip. My eyes are still hurting!

I should warn you though that the images I am posting are not for the faint hearted. Watch them at your own risk!

P.S.: This is a small sample of what I have seen.

Oh, I don’t know. For Roger Dubuis, those colors and styles work, IMHO. Not that I’d buy one.

What gives me pause is thinking how much of the new submersible line looks influenced by them.... but, the new CEO hasn’t been around long enough to have so wildly impacted the design language, right? Doesn’t such a fulsome product launch need more planning than less than a year?

[Sublovin]

Reminds me more of a new sneaker release...look at all the different color ways!
Oh boy. Yikes

[Panerol Forte]

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

Oh, I don’t know. For Roger Dubuis, those colors and styles work, IMHO. Not that I’d buy one.

What gives me pause is thinking how much of the new submersible line looks influenced by them.... but, the new CEO hasn’t been around long enough to have so wildly impacted the design language, right? Doesn’t such a fulsome product launch need more planning than less than a year?

I agree with you concerning the launch of new models like the Sub Carb 42, the Mike Horn, and the Guillaume Nery. All those watches are new and and must need time from conception to production, and he has been in his seat since April if I am not mistaken. On the other hand, all the variations of Sub Carb 47 are mainly color variations of the same watch, and this can be done quite swifly I imagine, providing you have the motivation... IMO, this is where he must have intervened.

[Saoirse32]

My third PAM after selling my 1305. I’m happy with the ones I got. The new releases don’t do it for me but that’s why there’s something for everyone!


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[bruinmd]

Originally Posted by Saoirse32

My third PAM after selling my 1305. I’m happy with the ones I got. The new releases don’t do it for me but that’s why there’s something for everyone!


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Is that the 47mm titanium that came out last year? If so, I really liked that piece a lot.

[Swiss Mad!]

Why is the OP getting flamed??

He's simply making the point that Panerai are massively inflating the price of something that is actually costing less to produce than its SS counterpart - what's wrong with that?

He also points out that they try & justify this with what basically amounts to fancy sales jargon & waffle...

Fair play to him.

They always say "Bullsh*t baffles brains.."

Well, if someone pays double for something that cost half to produce because they read the sales brochure, then that would certainly seem to be true in this case.

Thank you for bringing this to our attention OP



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[Panerol Forte]

Originally Posted by Swiss Mad!

Why is the OP getting flamed??

He's simply making the point that Panerai are massively inflating the price of something that is actually costing less to produce than its SS counterpart - what's wrong with that?

He also points out that they try & justify this with what basically amounts to fancy sales jargon & waffle...

Fair play to him.

They always say "Bullsh*t baffles brains.."

Well, if someone pays double for something that cost half to produce because they read the sales brochure, then that would certainly seem to be true in this case.

Thank you for bringing this to our attention OP



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Thank YOU for stepping in... I was starting to feel lonely.

[yachty 1]

I like to see that Mike horn addition used. With no experience attached to it. Probably be worthless. Also how can you put a watch out last year all in house , then have the next generation with different movement. How does someone think that's a good move for the brand? The only logic behind this is to destroy the brand so it increases sales for iwc and jlc

[LigerBelair]

Originally Posted by Swiss Mad!

Why is the OP getting flamed??

He's simply making the point that Panerai are massively inflating the price of something that is actually costing less to produce than its SS counterpart - what's wrong with that?

He also points out that they try & justify this with what basically amounts to fancy sales jargon & waffle...

Fair play to him.

They always say "Bullsh*t baffles brains.."

Well, if someone pays double for something that cost half to produce because they read the sales brochure, then that would certainly seem to be true in this case.

Thank you for bringing this to our attention OP



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Agreed and well said.

[Saoirse32]

Originally Posted by bruinmd

Is that the 47mm titanium that came out last year? If so, I really liked that piece a lot.

It’s the 1389. Titanium and ceramic dial.


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[nick c]

Originally Posted by Panerol Forte

'Curiosity killed the cat"



I just went where no Paneristi should ever go!... not even a new one like me!... I was curious to see what was the outcome of Jean-Marc-Pontroué leadership at Roger Dubuis... I thought it could give me an insight into the future of Panerai. I just came back, and I brought with me a proof of my hellish trip. My eyes are still hurting!



I should warn you though that the images I am posting are not for the faint hearted. Watch them at your own risk!



P.S.: This is a small sample of what I have seen.

I own this Roger Dubuis, man what a Quality built.


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[yobxelor]

Well, AP, RM, RD, all produce forged carbon watches at even more ridiculous prices. I don’t see your point.

Also carbotech isn’t forged carbon.

[Swiss Mad!]

Originally Posted by Panerol Forte

Thank YOU for stepping in... I was starting to feel lonely.

No worries.

I am as big a Panerai fanboy as the next guy, but that doesn't mean I have to be happy or agree with everything they do.

Posts like yours are important, even if its just to 'put the facts out there' and nothing else.

Personally, I had no idea that these carbon watches were actually cheaper to produce than their steel siblings and had just 'assumed' that because they were so much more expensive to buy, then by default that was because they were so much more expensive to produce!

Thanks for bringing this to my attention.



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[Panerol Forte]

Originally Posted by yobxelor

Well, AP, RM, RD, all produce forged carbon watches at even more ridiculous prices. I don’t see your point.

You just made my point!

Originally Posted by yobxelor

Also carbotech isn’t forged carbon.

Yes it is!... Google is your friend, use it! In this day and age, there are no excuses for undocumented statements. Especially on a public forum, where you choose to read a thread, and the OP posted a long TECHNICAL post, and a time consuming caliber comparison prepared on photoshop in order to BE CLEAR, and you decide to give your input by making such a statement, knowing that GOOGLE is a click away. If this is how you research your watches, I would love to see your collection.

[chemistman]

Originally Posted by crazycarlitos

Yeah I am familiar with that thread.

I also read about the p5000 movement on various sites.

Calling the p5000 as a scam is a far reach imo.

P5000 is pretty unreliable.

Sold my 511 last year after having it serviced due to movement running -4 hours per day.

When the watch was working it was running quite erratic between +12 and +4 per day (depending on how full wound it is)

Had enough and decided to move on . Beautiful watch though.

[Panerol Forte]

Originally Posted by nick c

I own this Roger Dubuis, man what a Quality built.


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Comparing your watch to the Pontroué watches makes me want to scream at him: JEAN-MARC! what have you done? you devil! Don't you dare do the same to the PAMs!

[Panerol Forte]

Originally Posted by nick c

I own this Roger Dubuis, man what a Quality built.

I was admiring your watch... it's a beauty! You sir, in my books, are definitly a man of good taste!

[Panerol Forte]

Originally Posted by Swiss Mad!

No worries.

I am as big a Panerai fanboy as the next guy, but that doesn't mean I have to be happy or agree with everything they do.

Posts like yours are important, even if its just to 'put the facts out there' and nothing else.

Personally, I had no idea that these carbon watches were actually cheaper to produce than their steel siblings and had just 'assumed' that because they were so much more expensive to buy, then by default that was because they were so much more expensive to produce!

Thanks for bringing this to my attention.



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Thank you for your nice words.. it's people like you that make it worth the effort of sharing the results of my research.

[Swiss Mad!]

Originally Posted by Panerol Forte

Thank you for your nice words.. it's people like you that make it worth the effort of sharing the results of my research.

Cheers - and it's people like you my friend that make this forum such a fantastic & diverse place to visit



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[nick c]

Originally Posted by Panerol Forte

I was admiring your watch... it's a beauty! You sir, in my books, are definitly a man of good taste!

Merci

[erik asher]

...but you cross over from informative to inflammatory by making absolute statements that may or may not be true, and by implying that Panerai is actually doing something illegal, unethical, or both.

Let’s take this statement from your original post:
“Nowadays, luxury became synonymous of rip-off! Mass produced items manufactured in poor countries by underpaid workers in unhealthy environments are sold as Luxury items with incredible mark-ups to trusting customers unaware they are being ripped-off. Their golden rule nowadays is: make more money at any cost. Deception is acceptable, as long as profitability is increased.

What do I mean by deception? Making a costumer believe he is paying the real value of an object by giving false information is deception. Pretending the build process is long, complicated and time consuming to justify high premium, and the reality being completly the opposite, is deception.
I am going to give you an example of deception. "CARBOTECH": it sounds high tech! How do they describe it? "Forged Carbon Fiber". Panerai sells their Carbotech watches for a very high premium over stainles steel, so it must be very difficult and complex to manufacture, hence the price difference. “

First, you imply that Panerai watches are being manuafactured under unsavory conditions, which isn’t the case. Second, you state that someone who buys the watch is being scammed or ripped off, in absolute terms. You also state in absolute terms that price is always tied to the length and complexity of the manufacturing process. Well, the truth is that price is tied to many more variables than that. A big part of price is tied to intangibles such as Reaearch & Development, and other costs associated with the watch that may not be directly tied to manufacturing.

While your post has some informational value and the non inflammatory and technical parts of your post give us all something to think about (and I thank you for that), parts of your posts are unsubstantiated which takes away from the really interesting and technical statements. I will also tell you that I would be out of business if I relied on google for my technical research. If you have a specific citation that is reliable and credible regarding the manufacturing of carbotech, please cite it, but my very quick google search proved inconclusive (I do admit that I am not an engineer so I Amy be missing the nuances of some of the descriptions).

I would just try to tone down the inciteful stuff and stick to a measured analysis without drawing conclusions.

[Pam673]

Originally Posted by Panerol Forte

Great choice of PAMs.. both are beautiful watches with historic ties.. wear them in good health

P.S.: Careful with those plexis..

Thanks

I found Plexi on Pam to be quite tough and easy to maintain. I used toothpaste to get rid of light and deep scratches on a few of them already.

Plexis are so yummy

[brandrea]

I’m curious how you feel about RM pricing OP

[nick c]

Originally Posted by brandrea

I’m curious how you feel about RM pricing OP

Insane for canal street RM

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by nick c

Insane for canal street RM

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[nick c]

Originally Posted by Panerol Forte

Comparing your watch to the Pontroué watches makes me want to scream at him: JEAN-MARC! what have you done? you devil! Don't you dare do the same to the PAMs!

As are friend Brian said. Panerai is a bargain compare to RM LOL