FP Journe Email Update

[pdnb]

Originally Posted by ChetBaker

This is what I don’t get about FPJ. There’s so much focus on hand finishing, guilloche á main, internal angles in today’s market. And FPJ offers none of this, at least not in their entry level pieces. A cynic would say the emperor’s new clothes.

It would be emperor’s new clothes if someone claimed they bought their journe for the finishing.

I guess the point is that most journe collectors are not prioritizing finishing above other aspects of the watch


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[pdnb]

Originally Posted by crod

Well i agree that the CB doesn't make sense at $80K but makes more sense than the 5711 at $90K (which I love and have, but its not exclusive as the CB and they did thousands of them) or the Daytona at $30K. Or any regular Royal Oak.

I will always prefer the DATO at $80K than the CB, I was lucky to buy the Original Dato in the low $40's in 2020 and its a MARVEL and I love it.

I think the key here is that IMO FPJ offers great value at retail prices compared to most high end brands.

I bought the CB at $20K new from the boutique in 2013 and started buying from them every couple of years since then. Since I don't plan in selling the, In all honesty I would love for FP prices to come down so i can get discontinued models that I love but the prices are extremely high like the Centrigraphe (not sport), UTC etc.

I got offered a UTC at $120K a couple of weeks ago but IMO its too much and not worth it, so I plan in getting more models of the current line little by little.

I too am glad I was one of the last peeps to get a Dato for less than 40… those days are over just like journe at msrp


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[pdnb]

Originally Posted by rolexandlange

The last two comments demonstrate how polarizing FPJ is.

The models you have are all superb and your comments make sense to me. However, I would say they're not entry level models except maybe the CB, which is a no brainer buy at retail, and a no brainer pass at 80k in my opinion.

I think the gulf is the MSRP prices which are even hard for normals like me to find online, and the "market" prices of entry for folks like me that aren't willing or able to hop on a plane at a moment's notice to visit a watch shop regularly to hob knob with the brand for several years to score an allocation. FPJ the brand is a bit too French for me, acting like we are all family and friends when in reality it is strictly business.

CB at $80k entry for plebs like me? Hard pass. I'd much rather wave in a(nother) datograph at that price.

So your point is you don’t understand the sub $100k market prices of Journe pieces? Vs. journe msrp?

And other brands sub 100k you can find more value?

Ok I get that.

Dato > CB for 80k market… agree.

$60K CS compared to other preowned pieces? Subjective and collectors preference.

But if you compare journe msrp vs others at msrp; I think value on the fact you will lose less if you sold is clear. Granted you can’t sell new journe if you ever want to get another.


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[llngoc]

Originally Posted by kaiserphoenix

I mean, whenever FP Journe is mentioned as a comparison, everyone starts talking about finishing as if thats the only thing that matters in a watch...Like Patek does not have the best finishing, and yet they are very popular as well. Rolex has no finishing to speak of either. My point is that there are so many aspects to a watch APART from finishing that needs to be considered. What about the case for instance? Someone mentioned Breguet's case but look at FP Journe and also Patek who have beautiful forged cases. Compared that with the more "elaborate" welded cases of other brands, some people just prefer a single forged case! I love Rolex, Patek, FP Journe cases because of this. What about the design and movements? Everyone forgets to note that FP Journe makes their movement out of GOLD. Not brass, or anything, GOLD, and sure enough not only does that cost more, its more exclusive and they do not benefit from economies of scale. Also look at how many different dials, movements, variety they have for a brand that only supposedly makes about 800 watches a year? Ergonomics! Most Journe pieces are less than 10mm thick. Contrast that with say Lange that everyone raves about in the (mass produced finishing) context, I agree from a mass production brand perspective they probably have the best finishing but they have only 1 type of case and many of their watches can get very thick and large. Journe makes sure his watches are elegant. The dials, someone mentioned they are stamped etc. Fine but there are other elaborate details like the thin metal frames around the guilloche etc, very clean printing, that adds depth.

This is what makes watches interesting! Everyone likes different things, but just measuring a brand on finishing is like looking at a car and speaking about its 0-60 stats only. We have to look at the overall product.

That’s exactly my thoughts. There is no perfect watch yet with the perfect hand made case, artisan dial, 100+ interior angles, innovative complications, etc. If there is, the production is likely to be a handful per year and prohibitively expensive.

It also will kill the joy of having a collection. One watch collection does not seem like fun to me. Most of the fun of collecting is to research and understand what you are getting and why you enjoy it enough to part with your hard earned money.

[kaiserphoenix]

Take for example a CC1/2 or Simplicity etc. These watches are not even comparable to a Journe imo. First the price bracket is in a totally different league but even if you DId have 200-300k which I believe is the MSRP (not sure) you can’t get one so makes the whole argument of value etc pointless coz you can’t even wait or order one. For me if a watch is unattainable (to the masses) it does not really serve as a good benchmark unless you start taking auction results into account at which point your close to a 1mil UsD price bracket. With FPj even if your going for the more complicated models like the optimum or resonance ur still in the sub 200k price point ANd whilst not easy, it’s not an impossibility. Recently I was looking at the price of a CO (msrp) and seeing as a mental excersize what else could I be spending this cash on (new), and it’s watched like the PP5270, or a Lange Zeitwerk Pt, etc For me the msrp whilst it has increased is pretty much inline with other brands whom have also increased I don’t get the feeling that FPJ pricing is out of the norm.

[llngoc]

Originally Posted by kaiserphoenix

Take for example a CC1/2 or Simplicity etc. These watches are not even comparable to a Journe imo. First the price bracket is in a totally different league but even if you DId have 200-300k which I believe is the MSRP (not sure) you can’t get one so makes the whole argument of value etc pointless coz you can’t even wait or order one. For me if a watch is unattainable (to the masses) it does not really serve as a good benchmark unless you start taking auction results into account at which point your close to a 1mil UsD price bracket. With FPj even if your going for the more complicated models like the optimum or resonance ur still in the sub 200k price point ANd whilst not easy, it’s not an impossibility. Recently I was looking at the price of a CO (msrp) and seeing as a mental excersize what else could I be spending this cash on (new), and it’s watched like the PP5270, or a Lange Zeitwerk Pt, etc For me the msrp whilst it has increased is pretty much inline with other brands whom have also increased I don’t get the feeling that FPJ pricing is out of the norm.

Someone please correct me if I am wrong. The new Simplicity directly from Dufour and company is now at over 500k (maybe closer to 700?) So it is not in the same price range as most FPJ unless you are considering the application pieces. (FFC and AST) But these FPJs are in another league of their own too.

FPJ is actually a niche brand in this regard IMHO. As the others pointed out, most other new independents are focused on finishing but very few of them are coming out with chronometric improvements. (e.g. resonance, natural escapements, etc)

[tigerpac]

It's not so black and white. The stamped dials are used because they're thinner. The automatic movement's rotors have a traditional guilloche if that's what you're into.

Originally Posted by WatchEater666

As it stands they aren’t even finished to the degree of a production Breguet Tradition lol. If they got there, it would be enough. Things like stamping are just lazy

[llngoc]

Originally Posted by tigerpac

It's not so black and white. The stamped dials are used because they're thinner. The automatic movement's rotors have a traditional guilloche if that's what you're into.

Yes. The Tourbillion Vertical has hand guilloché and also a grand Feu enamel dial.

No other FPJ used enamel due to concern with thickness too.

[kaiserphoenix]

Originally Posted by llngoc

Someone please correct me if I am wrong. The new Simplicity directly from Dufour and company is now at over 500k (maybe closer to 700?) So it is not in the same price range as most FPJ unless you are considering the application pieces. (FFC and AST) But these FPJs are in another league of their own too.

FPJ is actually a niche brand in this regard IMHO. As the others pointed out, most other new independents are focused on finishing but very few of them are coming out with chronometric improvements. (e.g. resonance, natural escapements, etc)

Oh I didn’t even know you could still order from Dufour, was referring to msrp of Cc2 which was around the 200-300 last time I checked tho granted I havn’t really looked into it as there is 0% chance of getting one. But yes agree with ur points!

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by tigerpac

It's not so black and white. The stamped dials are used because they're thinner. The automatic movement's rotors have a traditional guilloche if that's what you're into.

Do you have the source that states Journe's movement is engine-turned please? To me it doesn't make sense to stamp the dial and hand guilloche the back.

[llngoc]

Originally Posted by kaiserphoenix

Oh I didn’t even know you could still order from Dufour, was referring to msrp of Cc2 which was around the 200-300 last time I checked tho granted I havn’t really looked into it as there is 0% chance of getting one. But yes agree with ur points!

https://monochrome-watches.com/claud...ty-collection/

[llngoc]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

Do you have the source that states Journe's movement is engine-turned please? To me it doesn't make sense to stamp the dial and hand guilloche the back.

I think he is referring to the rotor.

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by llngoc

I think he is referring to the rotor.

I don't recall any part of Journe's movement (including rotor) is engine-turned.

[kaiserphoenix]

Originally Posted by llngoc

https://monochrome-watches.com/claud...ty-collection/

the article is from 2020?

[llngoc]

Originally Posted by kaiserphoenix

the article is from 2020?

Last I have heard, it is still possible to get on the list. But I could be wrong since I never tried to get one.

[pdnb]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

I don't recall any part of Journe's movement (including rotor) is engine-turned.

I would have to dig for some formal documentation, but I am pretty sure I heard Tim Mosso refer to the barley corn rotor as “real Guilloiche” while the dials had a stamped Guilloiche


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[GB-man]

I don’t know for certain if true or not regarding the rotor but the logic remains the dial can be made thinner by stamping however the rotor must be a certain thickness to do its job effectively.

I’m not really sure I buy that argument anyways as breguet makes some very thin watches with traditional guilloche dials. Frankly I don’t care but I understand why many do.

[dchang81]

Originally Posted by pdnb

I would have to dig for some formal documentation, but I am pretty sure I heard Tim Mosso refer to the barley corn rotor as “real Guilloiche” while the dials had a stamped Guilloiche


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Not sure the accuracy but yea I remember him saying that before.

[pdnb]

Originally Posted by dchang81

Not sure the accuracy but yea I remember him saying that before.

Right! I am curious to find some real documentation or confirmation


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[tigerpac]

It's nice when people default to not believing multiple other members of the forum they subscribe to but here you go.

https://monochrome-watches.com/fp-jo...-photos-price/

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by tigerpac

It's nice when people default to not believing multiple other members of the forum they subscribe to but here you go.

https://monochrome-watches.com/fp-jo...-photos-price/

Thanks for providing the information that I asked for. There is misinformation in this forum and I don't believe everything I read here.

The 2015 article you quoted is for a discontinued model. That model is now called Automatique and nowhere in the current and retrospective models in the Journe website I see the Automatique/Octa Lune rotor being engine-turned. Comparatively, in the Resonance web page, we can see the description "steel components hand-finished". I believe all watchmakers will proudly tell the world they hand finish a component, like what they do for the Resonance steel components and other higher end models. I also tried to search for other sources for hand guilloche of the rotor but could not find any. The 2015 article you quoted is the only place I saw this and while I also frequent Monochrome, I notice some inaccuracies from time to time. I believe this is an instance of journalistic error. Or maybe the lingo "engine-turned finish" refers to the look of an engine-turned finish (stamp) only, and not "engine-turned" (hand).

Comparatively in the Patek website, they proudly tell people the dial on the 5230P is "hand-guilloched" vs the silence on the 5935A stamping.

Don't get me wrong I love FP and the brand. I'm a big Journe fanboy. I own 2 Journes and had dine a few times with FP and Masa. I would love my Journes to be hand-finished but I know they are not. That's not an issue to me because at that price, I don't expect them to be.

[llngoc]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

Thanks for providing the information that I asked for. There is misinformation in this forum and I don't believe everything I read here.

The 2015 article you quoted is for a discontinued model. That model is now called Automatique and nowhere in the current and retrospective models in the Journe website I see the Automatique/Octa Lune rotor being engine-turned. Comparatively, in the Resonance web page, we can see the description "steel components hand-finished". I believe all watchmakers will proudly tell the world they hand finish a component, like what they do for the Resonance steel components and other higher end models. I also tried to search for other sources for hand guilloche of the rotor but could not find any. The 2015 article you quoted is the only place I saw this and while I also frequent Monochrome, I notice some inaccuracies from time to time. I believe this is an instance of journalistic error. Or maybe "engine-turned finish" refers to the look of an engine-turned finish (stamp) only, and not "engine-turned" (hand).

Don't get me wrong I love FP and the brand. I'm a big Journe fanboy. I own 2 Journes and had dine a few times with FP and Masa. I would love my Journes to be hand-finished but I know they are not. That's not an issue to me because at that price, I don't expect them to be.

I don’t think FPJ website documents 100% of the features. As an example, the movement dial of the Tourbillion Vertical was only listed as guiolloche but did not mention it as hand work. I actually need to confirm directly with the boutique and my SA checked with Geneva to confirm that it is hand giuolloche.

In this case here, probably checking with the boutique will be the most accurate.

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by llngoc

I don’t think FPJ website documents 100% of the features. As an example, the movement dial of the Tourbillion Vertical was only listed as guiolloche but did not mention it as hand work. I actually need to confirm directly with the boutique and my SA checked with Geneva to confirm that it is hand giuolloche.

In this case here, probably checking with the boutique will be the most accurate.

If I'm Journe and if I hand-finish my watches, I will ensure the entire world knows about it and not let my own customers 2nd guess. There are many ways for manufacturers to blast the positives of their watches these days and no reason to hide such info. However, I'm doubtful why Journe would hand-guilloche the rotor behind and stamp the dial which is the most visible area of a watch. Most manufacturers hand-guilloche their dials and stamp their rotor instead. I do agree with you we should ask but I will ask FP directly when I see him again hopefully soon.

[RRJ]

Originally Posted by kaiserphoenix

Take for example a CC1/2 or Simplicity etc. These watches are not even comparable to a Journe imo. First the price bracket is in a totally different league but even if you DId have 200-300k which I believe is the MSRP (not sure) you can’t get one so makes the whole argument of value etc pointless coz you can’t even wait or order one. For me if a watch is unattainable (to the masses) it does not really serve as a good benchmark unless you start taking auction results into account at which point your close to a 1mil UsD price bracket. With FPj even if your going for the more complicated models like the optimum or resonance ur still in the sub 200k price point ANd whilst not easy, it’s not an impossibility. Recently I was looking at the price of a CO (msrp) and seeing as a mental excersize what else could I be spending this cash on (new), and it’s watched like the PP5270, or a Lange Zeitwerk Pt, etc For me the msrp whilst it has increased is pretty much inline with other brands whom have also increased I don’t get the feeling that FPJ pricing is out of the norm.

I disagree - Greubel Forsey watches can be had in the 200k price range and they do everything FPJ does, but better. Better finishing, more complicated, more accessible. If you buy grey, value retention is a-okay. Not to mention FPJ prices are crashing hard, there is a CO selling on Chrono24 for CHF 130k. Romain Gauthier would be another great example for better „value“, although they might not be as complicated as some FPJs.


I also feel like pieces like the RQ and CO are kind of impossible to get, where as you can get any GF (- the handmade 1 for obvious reason) or RG any time.

FPJ was decent value at msrp a couple of years ago, nowadays, not so much.

That being said, I‘ve been waiting for a CO for 4y now and would still very much like to own one lol.

[llngoc]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

If I'm Journe and if I hand-finish my watches, I will ensure the entire world knows about it and not let their own customers 2nd guess. There are many ways for manufacturers to blast the positives of their watches these days and no reason to hide such info. However, I'm doubtful why Journe would hand-guilloche the rotor behind and stamp the dial which is the most visible area of a watch. Most manufacturers hand-guilloche their dials and stamp their rotor instead. However, I agree with you we should ask but I will ask FP directly when I see him again hopefully soon.

Are you heading to the Tokyo anniversary?

[kaiserphoenix]

Originally Posted by RRJ

I disagree - Greubel Forsey watches can be had in the 200k price range and they do everything FPJ does, but better. Better finishing, more complicated, more accessible. If you buy grey, value retention is a-okay. Not to mention FPJ prices are crashing hard, there is a CO selling on Chrono24 for CHF 130k. Romain Gauthier would be another great example for better „value“, although they might not be as complicated as some FPJs.


I also feel like pieces like the RQ and CO are kind of impossible to get, where as you can get any GF (- the handmade 1 for obvious reason) or RG any time.

FPJ was decent value at msrp a couple of years ago, nowadays, not so much.

That being said, I‘ve been waiting for a CO for 4y now and would still very much like to own one lol.

I agree with 50% about Gf except you missed the part that the watches are like 44mm and thick. As I mentioned before you have to take into account ergonomics and design as well not just finishing or complications. The CO at retail is like 130-150k, for me that’s a reasonable price for a Remontoire based watch. You mention RG but the logical one is discontinued and the the one you can order is the micro rotor, hardly comparable in technical attributes to a resonance or Co. Logical one was also close to 43mm + and 14-15mm thick making it similar to an IwC pilot chronograph. Not dissing the watch btw it does have an amazing fusee chain mechanism and great finishing for sure. Journe makes wearability a priority and so do I. If that’s not something that you care about you won’t gain any value there for sure.

[kaiserphoenix]

Originally Posted by llngoc

Are you heading to the Tokyo anniversary?

Has the date been set?

[RRJ]

Originally Posted by kaiserphoenix

I agree with 50% about Gf except you missed the part that the watches are like 44mm and thick. As I mentioned before you have to take into account ergonomics and design as well not just finishing or complications. The CO at retail is like 130-150k, for me that’s a reasonable price for a Remontoire based watch. You mention RG but the logical one is discontinued and the the one you can order is the micro rotor, hardly comparable in technical attributes to a resonance or Co. Logical one was also close to 43mm + and 14-15mm thick making it similar to an IwC pilot chronograph. Not dissing the watch btw it does have an amazing fusee chain mechanism and great finishing for sure. Journe makes wearability a priority and so do I. If that’s not something that you care about you won’t gain any value there for sure.

Good points, not disagreeing with this. I would just like to add that GFs Convexe Line offers fantastic ergonomics :). Still a bit thick, but they wear brilliantly.

You are right about RG, hopefully the Logical 2 will be a bit more conservative dimensions wise.

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by RRJ

You are right about RG, hopefully the Logical 2 will be a bit more conservative dimensions wise.

I understand the dimensions of the L2 remains the same, but it houses a different complication altogether.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by llngoc

As the others pointed out, most other new independents are focused on finishing but very few of them are coming out with chronometric improvements. (e.g. resonance, natural escapements, etc)

Armin Strom, MB&F, Ballouard, Halter, Moser (double hairspring)... there is an abundance of creativity in many directions. Seek and ye shall find. Not a slight at FPJ's accomplishments, he has his niche, others have theirs, and each has their own style and approach to timekeeping.

Imho there's never been a better (modern) time to enjoy both the art and creativity of horology... and there's room for growth too