Bought Rolex but received Empty Box--HELP

[MinMay]

Originally Posted by helo008

Meeting with lawyer tomorrow AM. Thank you for the support.

Get the FBI Crime department involved too by filing a claim.

https://www.ic3.gov/default.aspx

[dmash]

Originally Posted by helo008

Meeting with lawyer tomorrow AM. Thank you for the support.

Sorry but you have no case. Don’t know what you’re expecting. You could just as easily be scamming the seller, as he could be scamming you or the package was stolen by a 3rd party. No way this would be decided in your favor in court, it’s all his word against yours. Also, IMO, that’s sort of a silly way to go about things anyways, as all you’re doing is pissing off the guy who’s trying to get the refund for you as quick as possible.

If this was Paypal, sure they’d find in your favor and you’d win. In an actual court of law? Absolutely not. An entire waste of money if you ask me.

[breitlings]

Originally Posted by dmash

Sorry but you have no case. Don’t know what you’re expecting. You could just as easily be scamming the seller, as he could be scamming you or the package was stolen by a 3rd party. No way this would be decided in your favor in court, it’s all his word against yours. Also, IMO, that’s sort of a silly way to go about things anyways, as all you’re doing is pissing off the guy who’s trying to get the refund for you as quick as possible.

If this was Paypal, sure they’d find in your favor and you’d win. In an actual court of law? Absolutely not. An entire waste of money if you ask me.

He paid for steak and didn't get the steak. I think I would be inclined to hear this case, and tell the seller to sue UPS and the UPS Store if I were presiding, unless the buyer knew and told the seller to use that exact shipping method. But I am not a lawyer, yet, much less a judge.

[dmash]

Originally Posted by breitlings

He paid for steak and didn't get the steak. I think I would be inclined to hear this case, and tell the seller to sue UPS and the UPS Store if I were presiding. But I am not a lawyer, yet, much less a judge.

That could be a possibility, definitely. The comment you're quoting, was me saying he has no case against the *seller*. There's no way that will pan out and no judge would find beyond a reasonable doubt, simply on the OP's word, that the seller scammed him, with all the sets of hands who touched the package after him, including his apartment complex. He could definitely try and sue UPS (hell, if they decline the insurance claim, just the threat of a lawsuit might actually get them to reverse the decision), I agree. However, as I've reiterated multiple times, that's incredibly dumb to try and pursue, prior to an investigation concluding where he might get paid out to begin with.

[MinMay]

Originally Posted by breitlings

He paid for steak and didn't get the steak. I think I would be inclined to hear this case, and tell the seller to sue UPS and the UPS Store if I were presiding, unless the buyer knew and told the seller to use that exact shipping method. But I am not a lawyer, yet, much less a judge.

Why should the seller bother since most folks on the forum believes seller has no responsibility. Seller has 9k already. The buyer is out of 9k.

If that’s the law then I would predict more folks going to sell an expensive Rolex box lol

[outtatime]

I had this happen to me once-as a seller. Years ago in college I played Magic: The Gathering (card game). I had a ton of expensive and rare cards. I sold them on eBay. Packaged and took them to the UPS Store to ship. I was insuring this package for like $4k and the guy asked me what was in there (they always do). I said Magic cards. He said “oh, yeah my son is into that and knows a lot about them” and started asking a ton of uestions. I think u a making conversation.

Couple days go by. The buyer emails me that he got the box and literally all ththe good cards were missing. All the rest were in there. He was super mad. I knew immediately what had happened since inside the box all the “good” cards were in sleeves on top. The owner had called his son, told him what was inside, opened the box and just cherry picked and sealed it back up.

Filed a claim with UPS. Denied. Lost thousands.

NEVER go to a UPS Store. They are NOT UPS and are basically independently operated. In other words, you’re f’d.

Sorry to hear this for both parties.

[springer]

Originally Posted by outtatime

I had this happen to me once-as a seller. Years ago in college I played Magic: The Gathering (card game). I had a ton of expensive and rare cards. I sold them on eBay. Packaged and took them to the UPS Store to ship. I was insuring this package for like $4k and the guy asked me what was in there (they always do). I said Magic cards. He said “oh, yeah my son is into that and knows a lot about them” and started asking a ton of uestions. I think u a making conversation.

Couple days go by. The buyer emails me that he got the box and literally all ththe good cards were missing. All the rest were in there. He was super mad. I knew immediately what had happened since inside the box all the “good” cards were in sleeves on top. The owner had called his son, told him what was inside, opened the box and just cherry picked and sealed it back up.

Filed a claim with UPS. Denied. Lost thousands.

NEVER go to a UPS Store. They are NOT UPS and are basically independently operated. In other words, you’re f’d.

Sorry to hear this for both parties.

I quit using UPS years ago. They are the worst at paying out on claims. Read one online claim report that an individual filed where the item was damaged and UPS denied the claim. The seller was furious because UPS packaged the box for him. He never did get his claim resolved.

The are plenty of postings on the internet regarding denied claims from dissatisfied UPS customers.

Here are a couple and there are many others.

https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=295025

https://www.google.com/search?q=does...nt=firefox-b-1

[freefly]

Originally Posted by springer

I quit using UPS years ago. They are the worst at paying out on claims. Read one online claim report that an individual filed where the item was damaged and UPS denied the claim. The seller was furious because UPS packaged the box for him. He never did get his claim resolved.

+1000

And they are one of the most expensive to boot.
I've never had an issue with USPS Registered Mail. It's a bit slower, but the most secure shipping option I've found.
Watches (or anything else) can be insured up to $50k, and the chain-of-custody has no equal with the other common carriers, AFAIK.


YMMV...

[Pavlos]

The seller William21 has nothing to say?

[RJRJRJ]

This makes me sick. Neither of you probably did anything wrong and look where you are.

It's probably not a bad idea to video the UPS store packaging your stuff up if you choose to go that route.

There was a thread years ago on a different forum where the guy tried to scam the seller and said he got a rock in the box. Fortunately the seller had recorded everything on video to debunk him and win the PayPal claim.

[Seibei]

Terrible, I hope you and the seller sort this out soon. This kind of thing makes me happy that I am not buying or selling watches.

[TAKUYA]

Same thing happened with my shipments last year with ups. So this is my story and experiences. Hope it helps...

My worker shipped 5 packages out that day to my clients. 2 (highest values of 5) dropped off at UPS Store who knows us well, another 2 dropped off at FedEx who knows us well too, and last one dropped off at random UPS store. Why? Because I don't usually ship all packages out at one location.

Next day, 2 packages shipped by FedEx which were delivered safe and sound. Also the last package dropped off at random ups store which was delivered safe and sound as well. So lil concerned here about another 2 packages got delay which were dropped off at ups we know well... around after noon, 1st client in East Coast of one of those 2 packages called me and said there is no watch, just the box and watch boxes inside while the package still looks good from outside.. and an hour later 2nd client in West Coast called me and said the same thing with the same happen.... and until now I still don't know when and where those items got stolen.. at ups store, ups hub or at ups destination...?

Here are how I worked on it. Those 2 clients are my new clients so of course they definitely thought I may be a scammer at that moment. But first I tried to calm them down and showed them that the packages have full insurance and showed them that I'm working with insurance company and UPS to see what happened with the packages first. And I also guaranteed them that they will receive their full refunds within a few days after I hear back from insurance company and ups even the insurance company will take over 30 days for investigation and refunds to the sender... then next thing I needed my clients take a lot of the pics of the packages after they received and opened it. And also if they can tell me or estimate how the weight of the package when driver handed the package to them and do not throw anything from what they received. because the insurance company needed those packages in that exact condition send back to them for investigation. my worker kept the dropoff receipts of those 2 packages and took the pics of them before he shipped. Because on drop off receipt it will show what the weights of each package. So the package will be lighter if the item inside got stolen. And The tracking numbers will show the actual weight of package when driver scans it and hands it to the receiver. Then from there ups and insurance can know what happened with it... Another good thing helped me to get the cover from insurance that I always use brown paper tapes all around for packages. So when they received those packages back from my clients they could see someone cut the brown paper tape and tampered with clear tape over it. And of course I could not let my 2 clients hang there and wait 30 days for insurance decision. So one client understood and waited for me to find him another item or waited until we know the decision from insurance company. And If its not right, then both of us will find lawyer and give this case to lawyer to sue UPS. Another client (who became my regular client now) could not wait for another item or decision from insurance company, so I totally understood that and had to give him full refunds back. So in this case, the seller needs to deal with shipping company and insurance company if the item got stolen within the shipment like my case. But of course it needs lil helps from buyer as working with seller and be patient...

Also another thing that do not let ups or FedEx worker pack up your valuable package or let them know what inside the package. Especially with UPS since UPS is franchise so they can not really know much about their workers like Fedex.

[roaddog359]

Originally Posted by TAKUYA

Same thing happened with my shipments last year with ups. So this is my story and experiences. Hope it helps...

My worker shipped 5 packages out that day to my clients. 2 (highest values of 5) dropped off at UPS Store who knows us well, another 2 dropped off at FedEx who knows us well too, and last one dropped off at random UPS store. Why? Because I don't usually ship all packages out at one location.

Next day, 2 packages shipped by FedEx which were delivered safe and sound. Also the last package dropped off at random ups store which was delivered safe and sound as well. So lil concerned here about another 2 packages got delay which were dropped off at ups we know well... around after noon, 1st client in East Coast of one of those 2 packages called me and said there is no watch, just the box and watch boxes inside while the package still looks good from outside.. and an hour later 2nd client in West Coast called me and said the same thing with the same happen.... and until now I still don't know when and where those items got stolen.. at ups store, ups hub or at ups destination...?

Here are how I worked on it. Those 2 clients are my new clients so of course they definitely thought I may be a scammer at that moment. But first I tried to calm them down and showed them that the packages have full insurance and showed them that I'm working with insurance company and UPS to see what happened with the packages first. And I also guaranteed them that they will receive their full refunds within a few days after I hear back from insurance company and ups even the insurance company will take over 30 days for investigation and refunds to the sender... then next thing I needed my clients take a lot of the pics of the packages after they received and opened it. And also if they can tell me or estimate how the weight of the package when driver handed the package to them and do not throw anything from what they received. because the insurance company needed those packages in that exact condition send back to them for investigation. my worker kept the dropoff receipts of those 2 packages and took the pics of them before he shipped. Because on drop off receipt it will show what the weights of each package. So the package will be lighter if the item inside got stolen. And The tracking numbers will show the actual weight of package when driver scans it and hands it to the receiver. Then from there ups and insurance can know what happened with it... Another good thing helped me to get the cover from insurance that I always use brown paper tapes all around for packages. So when they received those packages back from my clients they could see someone cut the brown paper tape and tampered with clear tape over it. And of course I could not let my 2 clients hang there and wait 30 days for insurance decision. So one client understood and waited for me to find him another item or waited until we know the decision from insurance company. And If its not right, then both of us will find lawyer and give this case to lawyer to sue UPS. Another client (who became my regular client now) could not wait for another item or decision from insurance company, so I totally understood that and had to give him full refunds back. So in this case, the seller needs to deal with shipping company and insurance company if the item got stolen within the shipment like my case. But of course it needs lil helps from buyer as working with seller and be patient...

Also another thing that do not let ups or FedEx worker pack up your valuable package or let them know what inside the package. Especially with UPS since UPS is franchise so they can not really know much about their workers like Fedex.

Handled a much better way! This would be someone I would buy from. However I still will say never Bank Wire money, you have not recourse. Better to use a Credit Card even if the seller tries to get you to pay fees. I would rather pay 3% more knowing I have some recourse in the event the deal goes south. Why bank wire money to only give the seller all the protection, control and money and nothing for yourself is foolish in my opinion. I dont care how trusted the seller is. Good luck but I think the fishy smell is coming from the sellers end more than the buyers.

[springer]

Originally Posted by TAKUYA

Same thing happened with my shipments last year with ups. So this is my story and experiences. Hope it helps...

My worker shipped 5 packages out that day to my clients. 2 (highest values of 5) dropped off at UPS Store who knows us well, another 2 dropped off at FedEx who knows us well too, and last one dropped off at random UPS store. Why? Because I don't usually ship all packages out at one location.

Next day, 2 packages shipped by FedEx which were delivered safe and sound. Also the last package dropped off at random ups store which was delivered safe and sound as well. So lil concerned here about another 2 packages got delay which were dropped off at ups we know well... around after noon, 1st client in East Coast of one of those 2 packages called me and said there is no watch, just the box and watch boxes inside while the package still looks good from outside.. and an hour later 2nd client in West Coast called me and said the same thing with the same happen.... and until now I still don't know when and where those items got stolen.. at ups store, ups hub or at ups destination...?

Here are how I worked on it. Those 2 clients are my new clients so of course they definitely thought I may be a scammer at that moment. But first I tried to calm them down and showed them that the packages have full insurance and showed them that I'm working with insurance company and UPS to see what happened with the packages first. And I also guaranteed them that they will receive their full refunds within a few days after I hear back from insurance company and ups even the insurance company will take over 30 days for investigation and refunds to the sender... then next thing I needed my clients take a lot of the pics of the packages after they received and opened it. And also if they can tell me or estimate how the weight of the package when driver handed the package to them and do not throw anything from what they received. because the insurance company needed those packages in that exact condition send back to them for investigation. my worker kept the dropoff receipts of those 2 packages and took the pics of them before he shipped. Because on drop off receipt it will show what the weights of each package. So the package will be lighter if the item inside got stolen. And The tracking numbers will show the actual weight of package when driver scans it and hands it to the receiver. Then from there ups and insurance can know what happened with it... Another good thing helped me to get the cover from insurance that I always use brown paper tapes all around for packages. So when they received those packages back from my clients they could see someone cut the brown paper tape and tampered with clear tape over it. And of course I could not let my 2 clients hang there and wait 30 days for insurance decision. So one client understood and waited for me to find him another item or waited until we know the decision from insurance company. And If its not right, then both of us will find lawyer and give this case to lawyer to sue UPS. Another client (who became my regular client now) could not wait for another item or decision from insurance company, so I totally understood that and had to give him full refunds back. So in this case, the seller needs to deal with shipping company and insurance company if the item got stolen within the shipment like my case. But of course it needs lil helps from buyer as working with seller and be patient...

Also another thing that do not let ups or FedEx worker pack up your valuable package or let them know what inside the package. Especially with UPS since UPS is franchise so they can not really know much about their workers like Fedex.

How about a conclusion to your post? What company insured the packages? Did the insurance carrier pay you for the losses? If reimbursed, how long before receiving payment.

Thanks in advance for a reply.

jP

[william21]

Hello TRF--

Yes, I am the seller in this transaction. I recently listed my Rolex GMT Master II for sale after purchasing it in 2016 from a prominent seller on TRF. Helo008 and I exchanged several correspondences and spoke over the phone. Although he had not been on TRF for very long and had 0 posts previously, I felt comfortable after verifying his employment/educational status and identity. To be honest, I've participated in several transactions (primarily in person and via eBay) and this was my first transaction as seller on TRF.

The transaction moved forward and he processed a direct bank wire very quickly (thus, alleviating some concerns there). I utilized my local UPS Store and had them insure it for the watch's value. The counter staff did not see the watch but confirmed its make/model upon receipt. When I asked the franchisee owner if that was routine, she said that it was and is required to insure that amount. The box was taped, packaged and scanned on the spot. The weight was 1 lbs. 15.5 oz. I sent the tracking number immediately.

Unfortunately, after he mentioned that he would have his apartment building staff sign for it in case he wasn't there, I offered to meet halfway in person (i.e. Modesto). He did not think it was necessary and we agreed to move forward with shipping it. When I was contacted with images and a phone call that the watch was missing, I suggested that he contact local authorities ASAP (which he did). In fact, before I had a chance to speak with him and the Officer on the case, I contacted Emeryville Police Department directly myself, not knowing the Buyer personally and unsure if this could be fraudulent on that end. Shortly after that, I was able to jump on the phone with him and the officer assigned to the case. I subsequently filed a report with my local police department as well a claim with UPS.

I've maintained contact with him and am engaging UPS to investigate this immediately. After receiving advice from his attorney, he requested a full refund. I intend to let the process and investigation play out (both through PD for stolen property as well as UPS). I have also enlisted the services of an attorney as well. I will say, he has offered to be patient as the UPS claims process plays out, so that is greatly appreciated.

I am really hopeful that everything works out and UPS is on the hook. I probably won't engage back and forth beyond this point, but I appreciate the comments, suggestions, and empathy shared by TRF. I also posted a thread in case anyone has had any questionable experiences with the buyer in the past (hate to do it, but you just don't know). It's a very upsetting situation for me as it is for him.

[MinMay]

Originally Posted by william21

Hello TRF--

Yes, I am the seller in this transaction. I recently listed my Rolex GMT Master II for sale after purchasing it in 2016 from a prominent seller on TRF. Helo008 and I exchanged several correspondences and spoke over the phone. Although he had not been on TRF for very long and had 0 posts previously, I felt comfortable after verifying his employment/educational status and identity. To be honest, I've participated in several transactions (primarily in person and via eBay) and this was my first transaction as seller on TRF.

The transaction moved forward and he processed a direct bank wire very quickly (thus, alleviating some concerns there). I utilized my local UPS Store and had them insure it for the watch's value. The counter staff did not see the watch but confirmed its make/model upon receipt. When I asked the franchisee owner if that was routine, she said that it was and is required to insure that amount. The box was taped, packaged and scanned on the spot. The weight was 1 lbs. 15.5 oz. I sent the tracking number immediately.

Unfortunately, after he mentioned that he would have his apartment building staff sign for it in case he wasn't there, I offered to meet halfway in person (i.e. Modesto). He did not think it was necessary and we agreed to move forward with shipping it. When I was contacted with images and a phone call that the watch was missing, I suggested that he contact local authorities ASAP (which he did). In fact, before I had a chance to speak with him and the Officer on the case, I contacted Emeryville Police Department directly myself, not knowing the Buyer personally and unsure if this could be fraudulent on that end. Shortly after that, I was able to jump on the phone with him and the officer assigned to the case. I subsequently filed a report with my local police department as well a claim with UPS.

I've maintained contact with him and am engaging UPS to investigate this immediately. After receiving advice from his attorney, he requested a full refund. I intend to let the process and investigation play out (both through PD for stolen property as well as UPS). I have also enlisted the services of an attorney as well. I will say, he has offered to be patient as the UPS claims process plays out, so that is greatly appreciated.

I am really hopeful that everything works out and UPS is on the hook. I probably won't engage back and forth beyond this point, but I appreciate the comments, suggestions, and empathy shared by TRF. I also posted a thread in case anyone has had any questionable experiences with the buyer in the past (hate to do it, but you just don't know). It's a very upsetting situation for me as it is for him.

UPS round it up to 2 lbs.

What if SELLER gave the watch to UPS to package it...and SELLER looked away and UPS removed the watch..and continue to package without the watch and weight it as 2lbs.

I would ask for video footage of SELLER at the UPS store. I think the truth lies with the SELLER right now.

[Andad]

.

[GoingPlaces]

This has aways been fear of mine, only work with established and highly credible sellers.

[GGGMT]

Originally Posted by GoingPlaces

This has aways been fear of mine, only work with established and highly credible sellers.

+1. Who buys a relatively common watch (ie not unique or vintage) from a one off guy? Just buy from an established place.

[Bigblu10]

Originally Posted by GGGMT

+1. Who buys a relatively common watch (ie not unique or vintage) from a one off guy? Just buy from an established place.

Problem is there are more one off flippers recently selling new watches here, some don't know better to stick with the big power sellers and things go bad.
Myself personally only stick with the guys that have been here close to 10 years and with 30K+ posts.

[GGGMT]

Originally Posted by Bigblu10

Problem is there are more one off flippers recently selling new watches here, some don't know better to stick with the big power sellers and things go bad.

Myself personally only stick with the guys that have been here close to 10 years and with 30K+ posts.

I think we’re saying the same thing.

[GoingPlaces]

Originally Posted by GGGMT

+1. Who buys a relatively common watch (ie not unique or vintage) from a one off guy? Just buy from an established place.

My sentiments exactly, this happens all the time. Buyer sees a watch that might be a few hundred lower and then the next thing you know is they are on the forum complaining they are out thousand's of dollars and no watch. Stick with the trusted sellers.

[yxc145]

Originally Posted by GoingPlaces

My sentiments exactly, this happens all the time. Buyer sees a watch that might be a few hundred lower and then the next thing you know is they are on the forum complaining they are out thousand's of dollars and no watch. Stick with the trusted sellers.

For buyers, It is really easy to say buying from Trusted Sellers. But that makes it really difficult for private sellers
What if you want to sell your watch one day and you don't have much history buying or selling. Trust sellers are only willing paying you a few thousand dollars less than the the fair value.

[wesdaniel]

Originally Posted by yxc145

For buyers, It is really easy to say buying from Trusted Sellers. But that makes it really difficult for private sellers
What if you want to sell your watch one day and you don't have much history buying or selling. Trust sellers are only willing paying you a few thousand dollars less than the the fair value.

In the grand scheme of things, though, it seems like this happens relatively rarely here on TRF.

I've bought seven watches here. Without naming names:

2 from people with 125 - 200 positive feedback in Buyer/Seller Who's Who
1 from a person with 50-75 positive feedback
3 from people with 20-50 positive feedback
1 from a person with 5 positive feedback

Fortunately, all of my transactions went smoothly and there weren't problems, but, two of those sellers are now banned (I don't know why) and that gave me a bit of heartburn.

I think that there are a lot of factors to consider. Such as what the individual's post level is (not just number of posts, but quality of posts and amount of interaction); whether the individual has people on here that can vouch for them as a person; whether the person is willing to have a phone conversation with you and, of course, how many sales and purchases they've made here.

I don't think that everybody who buys from sellers who don't have thousands of transactions here is doing it to save $200 or $300. Most of the watches that I've bought have been because they're not commonly listed. If I wanted a Datejust, I could get one all day long from 20 sellers. If I want something a little less common, I have to take what's posted and decide whether it's worth the risk.

In the end, I've saved thousands of dollars off from MSRP on these watches and have gotten some watches that I wouldn't have found anywhere else. I took some risks, but I tried to mitigate those risks as much as possible.

The person who suggested PayPal and AmEx as preferred ways to pay makes a really good point. I've wired a few times, done F2F once and most of them were via PayPal.

If someone won't buy from any seller other than the ones who sell hundreds of watches here, that's fine. But, I don't think that's necessarily the only way to do this either.

[antbkny]

Guys, whenever you're shipping a watch or anything of value please pack it up yourself and dont let the shipper know what it is! ship discretely and insure!

[Lime]

To me if looks like the buyer is out of luck. No way of proving apartment staff,etc did not lift it out and re-seal. Sorry to hear about this.

[goldfixer21]

What a mess this is. I agree with those that say never ship a watch via UPS...ever. I always use USPS, my business insurance covers up to $25,000 if I use Express or Registered.

[123Blueface]

UPS scales are very accurate.
What was the weight of the package upon receipt by you?
Does that equate to its weight upon receipt by them?
If less when you received it, UPS is screwed.
If same, seller is full of BS.

[SeeitBuyit]

Excellent point. I shipped a motorcycle once and the buyer said parts were missing. However it weighed less than when I shipped it so, the buyer was playing games. Good luck with your refund.

[helo008]

Originally Posted by 123Blueface

UPS scales are very accurate.
What was the weight of the package upon receipt by you?
Does that equate to its weight upon receipt by them?
If less when you received it, UPS is screwed.
If same, seller is full of BS.

Hey Blue,

Did some measurements (package has been kept as is once I discovered the missing watch complete with bubble wrap) and the package weighs ~2.13lbs without the watch. UPS recorded weight was 2.00lbs. The package should be lighter than, not above the recorded weight if the watch was taken out right...?