Panerai In-House Movements - A PAM of Worms

[Saoirse32]

Originally Posted by ap1

What? Is this even true? Are you referring to the new 1068? That one is similar and a move I didn’t like. But, producing the 1209 as no longer limited would be nuts.

It's true unfortunately.
Trust me, I investigate for a living, and it's pretty annoying (see pic below). The 1209 is still online only, but it used to say "limited availability" and "contact concierge." Specifically, when I had reached out to purchase mine, I was told it was one of the last pieces they had left AND when I asked, I was "assured" this would be the only batch in this configuration.
Oh well! Shame on me for trusting lol




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[walds11]

Originally Posted by Saoirse32

It's true unfortunately.
Trust me, I investigate for a living, and it's pretty annoying (see pic below). The 1209 is still online only, but it used to say "limited availability" and "contact concierge." Specifically, when I had reached out to purchase mine, I was told it was one of the last pieces they had left AND when I asked, I was "assured" this would be the only batch in this configuration.
Oh well! Shame on me for trusting lol




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OT, but that bracelet looks bad**s on the 1068. I need to source one for my 959.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by walds11

OT, but that bracelet looks bad**s on the 1068. I need to source one for my 959.

Apologies for continuing OT. Oh yeah, I got the bracelet for the 01033 GMT and it adds a big presence. Got mine through PAM boutique.

[walds11]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Apologies for continuing OT. Oh yeah, I got the bracelet for the 01033 GMT and it adds a big presence. Got mine through PAM boutique.

I inquired about it at a PAM boutique. The 1068 is starting to drip out and the bracelet will soon follow for individual purchase. The 1068 is the first 42mm Submersible with a bracelet.

[ap1]

Originally Posted by Saoirse32

It's true unfortunately.
Trust me, I investigate for a living, and it's pretty annoying (see pic below). The 1209 is still online only, but it used to say "limited availability" and "contact concierge." Specifically, when I had reached out to purchase mine, I was told it was one of the last pieces they had left AND when I asked, I was "assured" this would be the only batch in this configuration.
Oh well! Shame on me for trusting lol




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I’m still in disbelief. I actually think you may be wrong (hoping) their web blows. I witness pieces often says limited availability then back to purchas. I actually think the 1209 just hasn’t sold out the 500 pieces yet. Only a new “series” beyond “W” would confirm this. Mine hacks! Lol

[Saoirse32]

Originally Posted by ap1

I’m still in disbelief. I actually think you may be wrong (hoping) their web blows. I witness pieces often says limited availability then back to purchas. I actually think the 1209 just hasn’t sold out the 500 pieces yet. Only a new “series” beyond “W” would confirm this. Mine hacks! Lol

Mine hacks too lol, although I recently traded it to a TS.
And bought the new Tudor BB Chrono, which I absolutely love!


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[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by ap1

I’m still in disbelief. I actually think you may be wrong (hoping) their web blows. I witness pieces often says limited availability then back to purchas. I actually think the 1209 just hasn’t sold out the 500 pieces yet. Only a new “series” beyond “W” would confirm this. Mine hacks! Lol

My guess, besides I agree their site blows, is they make them in batches. As one batch gets low in stock or sells out... compared to a new run and fully in stock. Odds are they have not sold all of them.

[rambo99]

Originally Posted by Saoirse32

Not to pile on but...

I purchased my 1209 last year. Per a Panerai manager/rep, I doubled down and asked about 2 things that were important to me:

1. This was to be a one year, 500 pieces only, limited edition. The rep assured me this piece was not going to be offered again.
2. The online description at that time specifically stated the P.900 movement was "in house." And I asked prior to my final purchase and the rep told me, yes, in house.

Now, if you go to the website, the 1209 is being offered still, and confirmed by a friend in the Industry, a different series number which shows the watch is being offered in another series of year(s). And therefore, another batch of 500 just like most of their reference numbers.

I'm an independent person, and make educated decisions based on a ton of research and trust, so I'm not too pleased about the fact I feel as though I was mislead.

The online material for the 1209 has removed the "in-house" part of the P.900, and it's still clearly for sale. In fact, you can go in and add it to your cart right now.

I fully realize this may not be a thing for some people, or even a deal breaker but for ME, it is. Clearly, I have myself to blame but I was perhaps stupidly too trusting of PAM reps/management.
For a piece that costs almost 3x that of a Tudor, for example, it's just unacceptable and has really left a bad taste.


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regarding the 500 limited pieces, may be you misunderstood them, panerai's limited edition usually means 500 pieces limited per year, not per model, lol!

[GreenLantern]

Originally Posted by rambo99

regarding the 500 limited pieces, may be you misunderstood them, panerai's limited edition usually means 500 pieces limited per year, not per model, lol!

Indeed. Another thing they seem to lie about regularly.

It's very rare that they have a hard limited edition single year production piece. That said, they do have a few up on their site.

[Saoirse32]

Originally Posted by rambo99

regarding the 500 limited pieces, may be you misunderstood them, panerai's limited edition usually means 500 pieces limited per year, not per model, lol!

I hear you, but I didn't misunderstand them. Their online materials and the conversations I had both online and via phone with reps, and one manager, specifically reiterated the limited edition nature of the 1209.
I'm familiar with how Panerai manufactures 500 pieces per year on many of their products but this was different. IDK what else to say...


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[Chewbacca]

I love the ‘whats the difference as long as you enjoy wearing it’.

Seems like everyone’s just trying to protect their investments now. Which I don’t blame but let’s be honest here, would you have bought it knowing this?

That’s the only question to ask now.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by Chewbacca

I love the ‘whats the difference as long as you enjoy wearing it’.

Seems like everyone’s just trying to protect their investments now. Which I don’t blame but let’s be honest here, would you have bought it knowing this?

That’s the only question to ask now.

So you're saying the more Panerai honestly informs the public about their new products the lower sales might be? Why would that be?

Are you saying the possible lowering of the movement quality / decoration within new products while raising prices might affect older products too?

Have no concern about 'investment' value (I turned down 47mm Bronzo, though am waiting on the 42mm with the 'new' P900 movement).

I personally feel Panerai's honest representation of their products has its own rewards... when they bestow upon their clients and members of the press what is actually being offered for sale. Am sure Richemont's Panerai brand is being as honest as they possibly choose to be, right?

Am thinking Richemont is buying the Swatch Group soon, as that would easily explain their recent mixup. Perhaps we should all be buying Swatch Group stock?

[Saoirse32]

Originally Posted by Chewbacca

I love the ‘whats the difference as long as you enjoy wearing it’.

Seems like everyone’s just trying to protect their investments now. Which I don’t blame but let’s be honest here, would you have bought it knowing this?

That’s the only question to ask now.

Exactly. The answer to your question for me is "no." In fact, I am so turned off that I traded it recently and am going to take a break from the brand. I'm not saying I'll never buy a PAM again, as I still find them visually appealing, but it's my money and I chose to go a different route. Certainly never purchased it as an investment regardless.


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[Kevin of Larchmont]

The narrative around Panerai’s brand has always been pretty thin. I never really bought into it beyond the fact that it’s a divers watch. I stuck to the basics in style and function and the old movements in my watches have established history, and I still have a few more models on the lower end of the model number spectrum to add. The characteristics about Panerai that I find most appealing are that it’s waterproof and easy to read and I don’t need much more out of it. I like it because it’s a big simple goofy divers watch. There are plenty of other places to look for watches with complications.

[Kevin of Larchmont]

P.S.: Another thing I really enjoy about my Panerais is that because they don’t hack chasing accuracy is pointless. I’m forever measuring deviation when I wear a Rolex, the Panerai is simply a more relaxing watch.

[karteo]

Originally Posted by Kevin of Larchmont

P.S.: Another thing I really enjoy about my Panerais is that because they don’t hack chasing accuracy is pointless. I’m forever measuring deviation when I wear a Rolex, the Panerai is simply a more relaxing watch.

and that's the reason i settled down with a 112 without seconds at all. who cares about seconds? some like to see some movement on the dial. idk

[Ltledezma]

I found this to be an interesting read but does the average consumer care at the time of purchase when in an AD?

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by Ltledezma

I found this to be an interesting read but does the average consumer care at the time of purchase when in an AD?

Am guessing generally not. Perhaps we should chill out and be happy Richemont's Panerai brand name seeks to strategically target those people with as high a profit margin as possible.

Meanwhile, those 'in-the-know' will choose models with quality movements that are appropriate for the price being asked. Fair enough, but..........

Of course "problems" might arise, such as 'limited edition' models that have Richemont's Panerai brand lowest cost movement as possible yet asking $17,000 to $25,000 or more. This is obviously where Rolex, Tudor, etc have a higher quality true in-house movement, and/or more advanced movement technology at the same, to perhaps 3x lower price.

If using the Swatch Group's ETA, or Sellita, movements... this is where Bell&Ross and others have products in the typical $3k to $5k range, perhaps higher depending on case material and which level of movement decoration chosen.

So ok, yes, while some of us might be a bit unhappy about this, let's relax and let Panerai charge as much as they possibly can to their customers who do not care about movement quality. Those who do care can make a decision accordingly. Seems fair.

Now we simply need Panerai to bestow upon members of the press and their customers what movements have higher quality and which ones don't. Problem is we're right back to Panerai apparently not fully disclosing exactly what their customers are purchasing. That leaves those who truly care, including journalists and bloggers, to investigate exactly what is being sold by Panerai and what really is the quality of all the bits.

Asking for transparency may be a bit too much for Richemont to disclose given they're so very busy nowadays. They may have no time to bother answering such straightforward questions from people outside their organization.

[Chewbacca]

Originally Posted by Kevin of Larchmont

P.S.: Another thing I really enjoy about my Panerais is that because they don’t hack chasing accuracy is pointless. I’m forever measuring deviation when I wear a Rolex, the Panerai is simply a more relaxing watch.

My 210 was the most carefree Pam I owned. $50 in parts but more Pam than today’s.

[10DeeQ]

just to chime in
i bought 562 several years ago and it was disaster it will run fast for a few days and slow
i tested for 7 days the watch can be as slow as 15 minutes in a week
but my 605 and 172 and most of my pams which are manual winding is doing great 👍

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by 10DeeQ

just to chime in
i bought 562 several years ago and it was disaster it will run fast for a few days and slow
i tested for 7 days the watch can be as slow as 15 minutes in a week
but my 605 and 172 and most of my pams which are manual winding is doing great ��

Interesting, started wearing the 01033 GMT as she was running 5 seconds fast an hour. Played around with it the next day. Last night let it lay on my desk. It is now maaaaybe accurate. So three days to stabilize the 9011 movement, maybe, I'll know more tomorrow. Btw it's been to service twice for this problem.

[Watch Expert]

IWC a nice watch, but there are so many watches similar to IWC design such as Oris, Seiko, Hamilton , Citizen and also quartz watches that you often seen in supermarket looks similar to IWC. Panerai design is very different from the rest of the watches.

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by Watch Expert

IWC a nice watch, but there are so many watches similar to IWC design such as Oris, Seiko, Hamilton , Citizen and also quartz watches that you often seen in supermarket looks similar to IWC. Panerai design is very different from the rest of the watches.

Couldn’t agree more. The design cues of Panerai are recognizable from across a room, not so much with most other brands.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by brandrea

Couldn’t agree more. The design cues of Panerai are recognizable from across a room, not so much with most other brands.

Agreed, Richemont's Panerai brand is a fashion some are familiar with. It doesn't matter the movement or quality of implementation as it's all style. A reliable ETA as Panerai uses, or Sellita movement like Richemont's IWC brand uses, is reliable and can be accurate with proper regulation.

I think Richemont is leaving millions of Euros in profit on-the-table as they can use Panerari's typical basic movements in normal production, yet if they invest $250 more for a far higher decorated movement from ETA or Sellita wholesale, they could charge $2000 more for a 'Limited Edition' version with display back.

It's time Panerari raises prices as high as possible for their basic movement fashion watches. Limited editions can bring even higher profits so Richemont is able to buy Swtach Group at some point. This way all ETA movements can be called in-house. That sounds like a solid business plan

[Watch This]

I have owned an 88, 422, and 1313. Over the years I have also watched the brand repeatedly piss all over their loyal core fan base.

[Watch Expert]

Hi guys, there is a lot of criticism and debate about Panerai, some even said ETA is better than the Panerai in hoouse. Please have a look at this:

What are your thoughts?

[Kevin of Larchmont]

Originally Posted by Watch Expert

Hi guys, there is a lot of criticism and debate about Panerai, some even said ETA is better than the Panerai in hoouse. Please have a look at this:

What are your thoughts?

Some rando on the internet knows a guy who has an opinion. It's not worth any of my thoughts.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by Watch Expert

What are your thoughts?

I'd judge each movement by any brand on its own. Of course any brand, even Swatch brand, can do those 'rare' tourbillon movements or other statement pieces to 'prove' they can pay someone(s) to do them. Timex could offer a minute repeater if they wanted. But who truly designed and created the movement.......???

Basic movements by ETA and Sellita and known good for around $300. Some of these movements are offered in various quality / specs.

So judge movements on their own merit, and generally ignore statement pieces like a tourbillon or minute repeater from brands best known for $5000 fashion watches.

[emtee]

Over the years I have also watched the brand repeatedly piss all over their loyal core fan base.

Its this that I find most upsetting.

[zion_rasta]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Raising prices while lowering the value of the internal movement is an interesting business practice and quite profitable for Richemont. We all know Panerai has been doing this for some time.

We have to remember Panerai is a FASHION BRAND nowadays in the eyes of many, and some just don't care either way. In fact it could be a $300 Sellita movement inside for all they care. i was that way with the TRON as knew the movement was low-end without any explanation what-so-ever from Panerai about eliminating the stop-seconds feature in their still unannounced 9010 'Evolution' movement that reduces features and is said to have lower-quality movement finishing.

Panerai was also asked by a leading watch journalist friend of mine about the 9010 'Evolution' movement, Paneri chooses not to disclose movement details on the '9010 'Evolution', which does not even say 9010 Evolution on their website(!) as the company makes zero differential between 9010 movements. This could have legal problems in the future. Some might say this is a very deceptive business practice, and curious if this will legally bite them in various countries in the coming years.




Is there some legal recourse in Switzerland, or an organization to contact to alert them of Richemont's Panerai brand lowering the reputation of Swiss watch brands via questionable business practices?




Exactly! Panerai is now a FASHION BRAND in the eyes of many.




i have a feeling Richemont knows what's going on, as it has been going on for long enough for them to stop it, IF THEY CHOOSE TO. Obviously we've not heard any word back from Richemont about this new scandal (and the 9010 'Evolution' scandal).




Agreed that Panerai MAY choose to do something, yet their FASHION TIMEPIECES are right now selling so where's their 'insentive' to do anything but continue to devalue their products in the eyes of many while raising prices of their cosumer products.


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It really is simple, Panerai should do better at disclosing the movements within their products. Even if Richemont's Panerai brand starts migrating to Stellita movements like Bell&Ross... which seems to be the course Richemont's Paneri brand is on at the moment.

Odds are nothing will change unless they are forced to do so (legally or a very strong hit on their 'reputation' that reduces sales to the point of 'pain'). Am not sure if any Swiss authority will do anything unless it becomes a legal matter.

The great news is we have the Internet as we all spread the word about Panerai's refusal to disclose movement details about their products.

We can all also participate in various online forums and social media by posting a link to the OP's article, or at a minimum alert online boards about this situation so those considering Panerai as a brand can be better informed of what they are actually purchasing since Richemonth refuses to have Panerai do anything about their ongoing movement scandals.


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This is all extremely easy for Paneri to 'fix' if they provide honest details to heir customers and journalists the truth about movement details in full.


It seems Panerai is extremey ashamed of their movements nowadays. How else would you explain this situation?

A sad state for Panerai (or any company to be sure), yet when I look at Longine, Tudor, or quite a few other ~$5k timepiece's movements it is painfully obviously Panerai is following down the road of Bell&Ross imho, yet at Panerai's 3x the pricing imho.

Perhaps it is time we start migrating to Bell&Ross? Fantastic timepieces with basically the same visual styling, yet with 'honest' movements and priced reasonably.

Attachment 1237524

Panerai is not a fashion brand, not even close. And that Perez idiot keeps bashing panerai to call attention to his vintage Rolex business. I hope Richmond sinks this guy for good.