thoughts/support on rolex 5512 meters first

[kstevens7236]

Hello rolexforums,

I recently picked up a rolex submariner 5512. This is not my first vintage watch. However, I'm not as familiar with submariners from the period. I have mostly owned watches from the 1970s/1980s. I am seeking some insight on this 5512. If the watch is correct for the period? Any support from members of the forum who are experienced with late 1960's matte dial Rolex watches would be appreciated.

The watch serial number starts with 186. I believe that dates the watch to 1968. The patina has aged to a pumpkin color. The hands have some age and minor cracking. The hands and dial match in color.

I am curious to get thoughts on the dial and hands. The hour makers have a waffle like texture. When exposed to a UV light in a dark room, the hands and hour markers do not react at all. When the UV light is turned off, the hands and dial do not continue to glow. I know some mid to late 60's watches will glow for a little while due to a zinc sulfide mixture. This one does not glow after being exposed to a UV light. The pearl does. Which I believe is a replacement.

It's difficult to describe the lume under UV light. It does not react. I can see little sparkly specks on the hands/hour marks. The lume looks slightly dirty under UV light. But I'm not sure if this is due to age. I will try to attach some pictures of the watch. Admittedly, it is difficult to capture the lume under UV light.

I'm also curious to know if this bezel insert is correct for this watch?

The bracelet is a USA C&I bracelet that says 1-70. Caseback has 5513/IV.67 inside.

I think a lot of the value of this watch is in the dial, so I want to make sure everything is correct. I would love to hear from people who have owned or have experience with these watches. What are your thoughts on the dial and watch in general? I recognize that this is challenging to check over the internet. But any help is appreciated.

If more pictures are helpful, I can try to provide more. I will mention that I am in my return period for the watch.

[kstevens7236]

attaching more photos of the watch in question.

[Dom9]

Will let the Sub experts chime in on everything else but the pip is also a replacement for me, perhaps the glow version of: https://www.ebay.com/itm/255469136789

Wouldn't be a big problem for me as so many are missing and I think they look better with something in the hole. However, genuine/authentic pips are available, albeit a period correct one may be difficult to find and expensive.

[kstevens7236]

Dom9 - Thank you for the reply. I agree, the pip is definietly a replacement. It's not too big a deal for me. If I keep the watch, I'll look into replacing the pip in the future.

[swish77]

How long does the pip continue to glow after the UV is removed? Rolex was using luminous around 1966-68 that did react green like that under UV and continue to glow briefly.

What you might have here is an original bezel insert pearl and relumed dial/hands, but you'd need further investigation. Usually the dial/hands lume would have some kind of reaction under UV. Even dead tritium usually gives off a green or white glow under UV, depending on the year.

[springer]

The dial glow does not appear correct. Meters first dials normally glow green under the UV light. Later tritium glows white under the UV. I would return it.

[kstevens7236]

swish77 - The pearl in the insert continues to glow faintly for about 5 minutes. But gradually gets weaker with time. Under UV light, the lume markers do look white. However, they look very messy. If you look closely, you’ll see that there are certain areas of the lume markers that have a purplish tint to them. This can be seen on all the lume markers. It's easiest to see on the lume markers at 3, 5, and 7.

springer - I agree with you. Something does look off to me. I don’t think it came out of the Rolex factory like that. I’m going to return the watch for refund. Going to trust my instincts here.

I appreciate the feedback provided by forum members here. It’s helpful to hear other perspectives to confirm my own thoughts.

[swish77]

Originally Posted by kstevens7236

swish77 - The pearl in the insert continues to glow faintly for about 5 minutes. But gradually gets weaker with time. Under UV light, the lume markers do look white. However, they look very messy. If you look closely, you’ll see that there are certain areas of the lume markers that have a purplish tint to them. This can be seen on all the lume markers. It's easiest to see on the lume markers at 3, 5, and 7.

Doesn't look like the lume has any reaction under UV. You're doing the right thing by returning the watch.

This is how original Rolex tritium from the late '60s into the '70s should look under UV, with a white glow. Earlier lume would have a greenish hue.

[kstevens7236]

Makes sense. This 5512 definitely doesn’t look right under uv light. I appreciate the insight from everyone.

[kstevens7236]

If anyone comes across a really nice 5513 or 5512, reach out to me. I’m primarily interested in matte dials. Late 60s to early 80s. Of course, everything would have to be correct with the watch and condition would be important. I’m interested in watches with clean dials and sharp/original cases.

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by kstevens7236

If anyone comes across a really nice 5513 or 5512, reach out to me. I’m primarily interested in matte dials. Late 60s to early 80s. Of course, everything would have to be correct with the watch and condition would be important. I’m interested in watches with clean dials and sharp/original cases.

Please reach out to me too. Anybody else want to be notified about attractive 5513/5512 examples that are correct and in great condition?

[Andad]

[TuRo]

Yes relumed dial and hands I suspect.

The relumed work if thus, is very well applied to dial I have to say texture and edging wise.

The flecking is the original tritium poking through the lume I suspect.

It looks like a 67 without the neat font but text close to Submariner.

There are at least 3 others eg neat font, light grey/blue font floating, T25 across four minutes and 5 minutes etc etc

[kstevens7236]

Dan S - they don’t grow on trees, but I would love to find a nice one. They are few and far between. I’ll keep looking. Unfortunately, so many that I come across have some sort of issue. Bad cases, crummy dials., relume jobs, etc. Makes me thankful for the nice vintage watches I have found over the years.


TuRo - Interesting. I hadn’t considered that. Makes sense based upon what I’m seeing in person. The lume has definitely been messed around with. Why? I assume to make the watch more expensive and attractive for potential buyers.

[tekno]

Originally Posted by kstevens7236

Dan S - they don’t grow on trees, but I would love to find a nice one. They are few and far between. I’ll keep looking. Unfortunately, so many that I come across have some sort of issue. Bad cases, crummy dials., relume jobs, etc. Makes me thankful for the nice vintage watches I have found over the years.


TuRo - Interesting. I hadn’t considered that. Makes sense based upon what I’m seeing in person. The lume has definitely been messed around with. Why? I assume to make the watch more expensive and attractive for potential buyers.

Where did you buy this watch? Can you return it?

The dial looks kinda like. Alchemist relumers work maybe? 5512 & 3 aren’t that hard to find depending on the year.

Find a watch and post it prior to buying it next time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[kstevens7236]

tekno - the watch was from a brick and mortar store. They mostly sell new watches and a few vintage watches. I’ve already started the return process and have shipped it back for refund. And agreed, in the future, I’ll get feedback from forum members before pulling the trigger. Usually, I’m pretty good at judging the condition of vintage watches. I just don’t have much experience with meter first dials.

[XavierM]

Hi,

Something interesting about this one is the longitudinal crack in the minutes hand…
I would not expect it from a recent relume, especially from someone who seems quite good at what’s he does…
On the other hand, I would also expect something else under UV.
66-68 seems to be a timeframe with lots of stuff happening with the lume, if you’re not in a hurry to send this piece back to get a refund, I would investigate a little more.

[XavierM]

Missed your last post stating you’ve already started the return process…

[tekno]

Originally Posted by XavierM

Missed your last post stating you’ve already started the return process…

Macros would have helped, in that era did some dials have waffle texture lume? I noticed what appears to be a waffle texture but photos are hard to make out.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[XavierM]

Originally Posted by tekno

Macros would have helped, in that era did some dials have waffle texture lume? I noticed what appears to be a waffle texture but photos are hard to make out.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

IMO waffle dial is perfectly normal with the serial range.
OP has stated the texture was waffle like.

[kstevens7236]

XavierM - unfortunately, I only had a 48 hour inspection period. So I had to return it pretty quickly. I did look at the watch very closely when I had it in hand. The minute hand did have a crack in it. The hands had oxidation and looked old. It didn’t look like a recent relume to me. The lume on the dial did have a waffle like texture. Which seems possible for some submariners and gmts from 1968. But I can’t be sure. I’m not an expert on meters first dials. I have seen some mk1 1675 gmt, meter first red subs, and meter first 5513/5512 with this waffle like texture.

What I can say for sure is that it looked odd under UV light. It looked as if the lume markers had been messed with. Or perhaps some sort of oil got on the lume markers. Notice the weird purple spotting/marks on the lume markers in my UV light photos. Additional, in sunlight, at certain angles, the lume markers had what I can only describe as a wet ring around them. Almost like an oil ring. As if something was on the dial and was cleaned up. Which would make sense given the lume markers all showed a purple spotting which was also present at the edge of the lume markers. To add to the mystery, the lume looked fine when not under a UV light. At least in my opinion. When I looped it, I didn’t see any signs of manipulation.

I’ll also add that the watch was sold by a very reputable dealer. Not only that, I happen to know the watch has been sold my a couple vintage dealers in the past. Dealers that I would tend to trust. Images of this watch can be found on a dealers website in the sold section.

Again, the watch was a mystery for me. I’m also not an expert on watches from the 1960s. I mostly know Rolex from the 1970’s and later. Ultimately, I do think something was off with the lume on the watch. Or at least it didn’t come out of the factor the way I received it. In that situation, I felt it best to return the watch. It’s too bad, in person, it’s a great looking watch.

[kstevens7236]

I still have images of the watch. I will try to post some. Apologies in advance for any quality issues with the images. Again, I'm not an expert. Just sharing all this to learn more myself. I also hope this thread can be helpful for someone else in the future.

[996marty]

Those hands look to have seen better days

[XavierM]

I have found the ad for this watch in the sold section of a known dealer.
Interesting one as apart from the UV shot you have provided, there is no evidence of any relume IMO.
If you don’t mind, I’ll open up a thread on VRF about this to collect other opinions.

[kstevens7236]

XavierM - yes, please feel free to. I'm interested to hear what you hear or find out. Please do share. I came to the rolexforums looking for insight because the watch lume was very odd. I have not seen anything like it before. Under a 10x loupe, I could see no obvious signs of anything being done to the lume on the dial or hands. It looked okay to me. However, under UV light, the story changes a bit. As you can see from my photos. It just looked odd to me. I'm not sure why the lume looks the way it does under UV light. I have a theory but can't be sure.

Again, I want to emphasize that I am not an expert on these meter first dials. I just wanted to share with the forum to get the opinions of folks on the forum with more experience than me. I also thought it would be helpful to have this online for people looking to purchase a meters first 5512 in the future.

I'll note that the watch has been returned and I have been fully refunded, so I can only contribute the photos I still have on my phone at this point.

[tekno]

Originally Posted by XavierM

I have found the ad for this watch in the sold section of a known dealer.
Interesting one as apart from the UV shot you have provided, there is no evidence of any relume IMO.
If you don’t mind, I’ll open up a thread on VRF about this to collect other opinions.

I had a feeling that it would be very hard to replicate that texture. I thought you were Xeramic for some reason.

Looking back the watch was nice. I wonder when they went from gilt to matte on 5512.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Dom9]

Doesn't look like anyone posted the VRF thread, where Xeramic gives his thoughts:

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/vint...e-t275571.html

[XavierM]

Originally Posted by tekno

I had a feeling that it would be very hard to replicate that texture. I thought you were Xeramic for some reason.

Looking back the watch was nice. I wonder when they went from gilt to matte on 5512.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Same feeling about the texture, that’s why I wanted to dig a bit deeper.

And no, I’m not Xeramic, just a young French collector with a lot to learn :)

[TuRo]

Originally Posted by Dom9

Doesn't look like anyone posted the VRF thread, where Xeramic gives his thoughts:

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/vint...e-t275571.html

Yes, that second set of macro photos on posting #22 were much more telling. Nice work Xa' and Xe'.

[springer]

The UV light tells no lies. It's a very beneficial tool in forensics for a reason. Many times, it will show what the naked eye can't discern or see. The OP's dial depicted, in my opinion, might very well have some issues which others here have also mentioned.

As far as the lume looking "perfect", I would like to add that I've seen many high quality relumed dials that have fooled many collectors. The condition of the lume is just one factor when trying to determine whether a dial was relumed by an expert in his trade or by an amateur new to the "reluming profession." Expert reluming can look as good as original lume because that's what they, being experts, do.

While there might be a chance that this dial has original lume/hands, an in-person exam by someone that is capable of determining if the dial is original or not would be the best course of action for anyone considering a purchase of this model.