Rolex Guilt?

[Catyack]

Originally Posted by Rolexbiker

Nor do I believe the vast majority of immigrants would be in a position or even value or consider spending $5000 for a watch as you indicated, I feel like I made good choices for someone without a formal education. Like my father. I will never believe someone became successful in a vacuum. One person's success is the result of many other failures. Anyone who invests RE or the markets knows this. It takes losers to make winners, Living 13 years in Vegas taught me that. If everyone was rich no one would be,

Right. To learn all about life, hard work, and success, live in Vegas. That's a new one. And of course most immigrants wouldn't value a Rolex over sending their kids to college or buying a better home, nor would I ever claim they would. The whole idea to emigrate from their home country was so seek better opportunities for themselves and family, and start over. It wasn't because they couldn't afford or find a Submariner where they were.

And "will or will they not buy a Rolex" is not the point, nor was it ever. The point is you're disparaging the very notion that hard work can lead to success simply because you personally didn't have to work very hard for yours..that you were "born lucky" flipped some RE. Great for you, but not everyone living in the U.S. was even born there, and some worked like hell just to get there legally. The ones arriving now are in the situation your grandparents were in, not yours now sitting as they beneficiary of the opportunities they provided.

[Silvio Mosiello]

Originally Posted by Rolexbiker

So very true. When I am listening to "self made" stories, what is always left out is the "luck" part, and the "mentor" part, timing part,

Working hard and applying oneself does not always end in success, In fact I would say the opposite is true more than not. Relatively few hard workers achieve financial independence. Not everyone has the opportunity to be a HS grad, Rush Limbaugh or College drop out Steve Jobs or Bill Gates, Many work their whole lives and never achieve much or get the promotions based on their work record, or get start up money, They just were not as lucky, or popular or some other intangible.

It is easy to sit on the cat bird seat claiming "I worked hard and made the right choices so I deserve what I have" No you were blessed and maybe had good timing. Someone may have mentored you. Left you some bread and such, You did not achieve all of what you have alone in a vacuum. That is impossible.

I cannot honestly say I was not lucky on the road to today. If there was no Internet bubble, If people were not paying stupid money for houses in San Diego in the 80s and again in Las Vegas in 2006 I would not be in the position I am in today.

Yeah I worked hard and all that jazz, took risks, bought a few cheap homes when "qualifying" was lying about income. Worked a couple jobs. But at the end of the day OTHER people created my opportunity, I just took advantage of them. Not a whole lot of hard work there. Just a for sale sign when others were buying.

We ALL hit the lottery just being born in the US or developed country to a great extent. People have lost touch with the plight and lack of opportunity of MOST of the world's population, It is not their fault they are not successful. I am aware of many friends growing up who worked and still work their asses off and never grabbed the gold ring and never will. I do feel guilty sometimes driving the five year old Vette. These are people I would not wear a Rolex with socially.

I will never claim I was not blessed and did it myself. No one can become successful without others. and a sprinkle of blessings, and timing,

You win! Best post here


Sent from my Motorola Razor

[jot_]

Originally Posted by Silvio Mosiello

You win! Best post here


Sent from my Motorola Razor

Very true! I feel like when people say that hard work got them to where they are and that's why they deserve their good fortunes; what is subtly being said is that others who are not in the same position simply are not working hard enough. Obviously, hard work is necessary, but that is just one piece of the puzzle.

I recall graduating back in 2009. Remember that? Economy was in the toilet and everything was very uncertain. The capstone to my degree was a six month long internship. Based on that internship, I was fortunate enough to get a full time job offer which was able to springboard me into a (so far) successful career. I was lucky. Many of the people I went to school with were not. Very smart, very hard working and talented people who just could not get that first break. As time went on, it didn't become any easier and eventually, it just ended up being too long after graduating and their careers were never able to take off.

A lot of these smart, talented people are stuck with mounds of student loan debt and can't get a job beyond working in retail or at restaurants, making very little. I do feel guilty sometimes about my Rolex or just generally, my good fortune compared to them.

[Rolexbiker]

Originally Posted by Catyack

Right. To learn all about life, hard work, and success, live in Vegas. That's a new one. And of course most immigrants wouldn't value a Rolex over sending their kids to college or buying a better home, nor would I ever claim they would. The whole idea to emigrate from their home country was so seek better opportunities for themselves and family, and start over. It wasn't because they couldn't afford or find a Submariner where they were.

And "will or will they not buy a Rolex" is not the point, nor was it ever. The point is you're disparaging the very notion that hard work can lead to success simply because you personally didn't have to work very hard for yours..that you were "born lucky" flipped some RE. Great for you, but not everyone living in the U.S. was even born there, and some worked like hell just to get there legally. The ones arriving now are in the situation your grandparents were in, not yours now sitting as they beneficiary of the opportunities they provided.

NO .....I am disparaging the idea that hard work and sacrifice automatically leads to success without anyone else. I am disparaging the idea that here is even such a thing as "self made."

Vegas was a great learning opportunity because n life for every winner there are quite a few losers. The lesson was "play with the house" BE the seller when everyone else is buying and the buyer when everyone else is selling (which is why I loaded up on energy stocks a few weeks ago when people were panicking) as if oil was going back to $1 a gallon..... That has been a good bet so far. That doesn't take "hard work" It takes risk and a contrary opinion.....Like we share!

Hard work does not just lead to success. You need luck and Blessings and more than anything OTHER PEOPLE.

In my life living in SoCaL Vegas, and now here I have never seen any people work as hard as Mexican Americans/immigrants whether legal or not. Only to live in very modest lifestyle. I view that as Hard work. Not pressing "buy NOV" on a computer or selling a house when people are lined up to buy.

Originally Posted by jot_

Very true! I feel like when people say that hard work got them to where they are and that's why they deserve their good fortunes; what is subtly being said is that others who are not in the same position simply are not working hard enough. Obviously, hard work is necessary, but that is just one piece of the puzzle.

Exactly. If everyone could achieve success with hard work, there would be a whole lot more successful people wearing Rolex watches. Its not that easy just to work hard. I know many people who work a whole lot harder and much longer than I did even working two jobs to pay off my first home in San Diego. People who will be struggling well into retirement. I also know kids I grew up with who got life handed to them on silver platters. They are not the happiest people to be around today,

[zama]

A series of interesting posts here, I think we all should be thankful firstly for being born on this speck of dust in the cosmos, depending on your beliefs and which expert you listen to we may well be the only advanced life in the solar system. You overlay that with being born human and in my case in a developed country where opportunities exist as well as comforts in life. I have heard up to 95% of the earth's population don't get to make conscious choices in life instead are always focused on surviving day to day.

I did not build a fortune from nothing etc... some do value this above all else, my father did that, I was lucky enough to have had good education and a happy home life. To the points above I am a GM of a company with 300 staff at 43. Did I achieve what my father did probably not, did I have more to lose probably because I can always be one of those people point to and say he had a great education and family and he wasted it. I felt I had to achieve no matter what. My brother and sister are the same, company directors and lawyer respectively. We were never pushed but grew up in a family that valued giving your all.

FYI the company I work for is not a family business etc... good grades, intellect and hard work still get you over the line no matter where your start point is. I admire achievers whatever their background, as long as they have heart, work hard and care about others they are on my list of people I want around me.

[Catyack]

Originally Posted by Rolexbiker

NO .....I am disparaging the idea that[I] hard work and sacrifice automatically leads to success without anyone else.

Nobody said hard work and sacrifice automatically lead to success (with or without the help of others). That's a ludicrous notion, and one that's purely your own invention. So feel free to disparage it all you want, straw men deserve to be.

And the term "self-made" is an expression. It's not now, or ever has been, a literal self-description. I've never met anyone in my entire existence that believes that they live life in a vacuum, devoid of others, and assigning that nonsensical belief to those who use the expression is just a vehicle to try and downplay those who have seized the day and actually created wealth and opportunities for others where there was none before and equate it to merely picking up crumbs of pie others made.

If you harbour some guilt about how you accumulated your wealth, fine. But this thread has gone down the road of trying to sell that guilt to others based on "life isn't fair, so therefore you amount to far less than you think you do". Sorry, not buying in.

[scranger]

Don't worry about it. IMHO, most people pay no attention to what watch someone else is wearing. Even if they do, there are so many knockoffs and lookalikes around that it's hard to tell the difference from the real thing without a loupe.

[Roger1079]

Originally Posted by The Joker

Wow really, so Rolex watches are cheap in your eyes. (Cheap as in price not quality)

Yes, when compared to some other watchmakers, they are. The quality is second to none, but Rolex absolutely is not far from the entry level of luxury timepieces as far as price goes. Rolex's MOST EXPENSIVE current model is around $275,000 if I remember right. There are watchmakers out there where the STARTING price is somewhere in the quarter million dollar range and their more expensive offerings are over 7 figures.

[jnkay]

Originally Posted by HogwldFLTR

Only if my wife figures it all out.

bingo!

[handsfull]

Originally Posted by Rolexbiker

Hard work does not just lead to success. You need luck and Blessings and more than anything OTHER PEOPLE.

Hmm. Born to two lower/middle class parents, both worked full-time. One day shift, the other night...my whole life. I began working at 13, nearly full-time....all the way thru college. MANY weeks averaging 70-90 hours a week (kept all my paycheck stubs to show my kids someday). Into the Army, then out. Now in a trade that I secured myself into. No family 'connections' (aka Dad, uncles, etc) to get me an 'in'. No friends helped either....just me promising my employer that no one will out work me, ever. I still work for that same company, and that was about 20 years ago.

I can read into the luck and blessings...but can't find the "other people" application. I've worked my posterior off. Doing so when others were playing football, baseball, etc.....or their dads buying them there vehicles/paying insurance/etc. I bought my own car/gas/paid my own insurance....hell, I still remember what I paid at 16 years old - $721.00 every 6 months in 1990 for liability only!


Some people indeed do it on their own, and some of those people find it off-putting to hear otherwise.




Definition of Guilt:

guilt
ɡilt/
noun
1.
the fact of having committed a specified or implied offense or crime.


I feel none of it.

[Jinze01]

To be honest, as some one else mentioned, it is people who make you succesfull and you can only win because others loose more or less. Some people can only make more profit because others make less in most cases. You can try to justify your posessions all you want but the questions is if you really believe in it deep inside.

[aaamax]

Have to say once again how much I respect the participants of this site.
Getting all philosophical and down-right sociopolitical on each other without the fangs showing… Or at least not trying to drawing blood. Gotta luv it!
Cheers.

[Fiddler]

Originally Posted by tkerrmd

i came from nothing and i am proud of my accomplishments. Internally proud that i created my own success. I do nothing, buy nothing, or wear nothing to boost, show off, or prove anything. Only because they give me personal joy and i will never be ashamed of that. I don't display my signs of achievements i live them

+1

[handsfull]

Originally Posted by Jinze01

To be honest.......you can only win because others loose more or less.

To be honest.....that is complete nonsense.

If you actually believe that.....I have a unicorn for sale, and it comes with a free rainbow.

[Northbound]

I think the word "guilt" in his thread should be changed to self conscious. I personally have not felt guilt as much as I have felt self conscious. I don't feel guilty for owning or purchasing these items but I've often felt self conscious when wearing them. Not wanting others to feel bad about having less or having it appear I'm flaunting a status symbol. The "Rolex Stigma" is there whether we like to admit it or not folks. You ask 8/10 average joes on the street what their opinion of Rolex is and I don't think you'll like their answer. I've done it. I personally admire the quality of the new Rolex pieces so I've looked past these things, but I can't say I'm completely immune or comfortable wearing them in public. The same goes for any other status symbols as well. These companies have worked hard in their marketing and price hikes to keep up these images. What's the running joke about BMW's? "What's the difference between a BMW and a porcupine?" BMW happens to be my favorite car manufacturer BTW The point is, Rolex watches are fantastic, but we can't deny the subject matter has some validity or say the OP is crazy for feeling this way. I've known others who have sold off all of theirs for having similar concerns. What's the answer? I don't know. Each to their own I guess. I certainly don't think everyone should live in mediocrity for the fear of not offending others, nor do I want to, but I do think there is a difference between appreciating luxury and flaunting it. It's up to each of us to decide where that line is.

[bmwsubmariner]

Originally Posted by Northbound

I think the word "guilt" in his thread should be changed to self conscious. I personally have not felt guilt as much as I have felt self conscious. I don't feel guilty for owning or purchasing these items but I've often felt self conscious when wearing them. Not wanting others to feel bad about having less or having it appear I'm flaunting a status symbol. The "Rolex Stigma" is there whether we like to admit it or not folks. You ask 8/10 average joes on the street what their opinion of Rolex is and I don't think you'll like their answer. I've done it. I personally admire the quality of the new Rolex pieces so I've looked past these things, but I can't say I'm completely immune or comfortable wearing them in public. The same goes for any other status symbols as well. These companies have worked hard in their marketing and price hikes to keep up these images. What's the running joke about BMW's? "What's the difference between a BMW and a porcupine?" BMW happens to be my favorite car manufacturer BTW The point is, Rolex watches are fantastic, but we can't deny the subject matter has some validity or say the OP is crazy for feeling this way. I've known others who have sold off all of theirs for having similar concerns. What's the answer? I don't know. Each to their own I guess. I certainly don't think everyone should live in mediocrity for the fear of not offending others, nor do I want to, but I do think there is a difference between appreciating luxury and flaunting it. It's up to each of us to decide where that line is.

This about sums is up for me.

[Jinze01]

These days one can feel both guilt and fear wearing pieces, because there are many low lifers out there that would rob you for fun ^^.

[lorsban]

I used to have a 2tone sub. Rarely wore it because I felt self conscious. I know nobody really gives a damn what I wear or even if some did, they didn't show it. But, I kinda felt like a showoff so I sold it.

I also have a TT datejust but the sub looked way flashier to my eyes. Maybe because TT DJs are all over the place.

I guess my thinking is kind of influenced by the industry I'm in (agriculture) where I usually deal with farm workers and landowners who aren't usually the sophisticated sort.

[Headshrinker]

At times, I have had some relatives attempt to make me feel awkward wearing a gold watch or driving a Porsche, but I am above that sort of thing. Like many fellow TRFs, I too, have earned everything I have by hard work.
I would be remiss if I did not give a nod to Dr. Tom and his brilliant post. It said all there is to be said, more eloquently than I could muster.

[Gaijin]

Originally Posted by Northbound

I think the word "guilt" in his thread should be changed to self conscious. I personally have not felt guilt as much as I have felt self conscious. I don't feel guilty for owning or purchasing these items but I've often felt self conscious when wearing them. Not wanting others to feel bad about having less or having it appear I'm flaunting a status symbol. The "Rolex Stigma" is there whether we like to admit it or not folks. You ask 8/10 average joes on the street what their opinion of Rolex is and I don't think you'll like their answer. I've done it. I personally admire the quality of the new Rolex pieces so I've looked past these things, but I can't say I'm completely immune or comfortable wearing them in public. The same goes for any other status symbols as well. These companies have worked hard in their marketing and price hikes to keep up these images. What's the running joke about BMW's? "What's the difference between a BMW and a porcupine?" BMW happens to be my favorite car manufacturer BTW The point is, Rolex watches are fantastic, but we can't deny the subject matter has some validity or say the OP is crazy for feeling this way. I've known others who have sold off all of theirs for having similar concerns. What's the answer? I don't know. Each to their own I guess. I certainly don't think everyone should live in mediocrity for the fear of not offending others, nor do I want to, but I do think there is a difference between appreciating luxury and flaunting it. It's up to each of us to decide where that line is.

Best post so far.

[steve.r]

I am a Brit, I work in China and live in the Philippines with my wife and children. When I am working in China the workers are reflectively on a considerably lower salary than me. The same can be said when I return home to the Philippines. In China many people know the Rolex brand and you see many people wearing fakes, so I don't feel self conscious about wearing mine there because no one cares and probably think mine is a fake too.
When I am home, I think people look me up and down, specially when I am out in the mall with my wife and children. I think my Rolex is more recognized there as an 'expensive' watch, which does make me feel more self conscious, to the point where I sometimes to cover my watch with my hands if I am talking to someone in a shop, for example. Where we live is in a small rural town so not much wealth but I think it is almost expected that I show wealth. I always try to blend in with everyone around me but of course I am always the foreigner. On occasion I have been asked about my watch and how much it cost and I get embarrassed as I know that this is maybe many years salary for a farm worker. I just say it was 'too much' and try and move on. I then hope people don't judge me on my supposed wealth and judge me on my kindness and willingness to blend into the community as a fellow human being.

[tkerrmd]

Originally Posted by Headshrinker

At times, I have had some relatives attempt to make me feel awkward wearing a gold watch or driving a Porsche, but I am above that sort of thing. Like many fellow TRFs, I too, have earned everything I have by hard work.
I would be remiss if I did not give a nod to Dr. Tom and his brilliant post. It said all there is to be said, more eloquently than I could muster.

Thanks my friend, a lot of wisdom in this thread

[engin33r]

Originally Posted by greggsiam

It's partly in how you act. If you aren't rubbing it in people's faces and acting poorly, it shouldn't matter. "Pass the grey Poupon....OH YEAH, LOOK AT MY ROLEX"

I can see where you are coming from. When in Cambodia, I felt bad walking around with a $5,000 camera because the people I was shooting were lucky to make $500 in 6 months of hard work. But in the end, I acted properly, treated people with respect and kindness, so there was never an issue. In fact, the people were ecstatic to get their picture taken, and they were some of the happiest people I have ever met in my life. So maybe those that do notice your Rolex will have the "that's a cool watch" attitude, other than something negative.

Well said...

I've seen in real life, examples where success and wealth do not lead to happiness, and in fact it went the other way around.

I've seen a couple where both husband and wife were successful and wealthy in their own rights - in the end both were so busy with their own careers, they don't really spend time with their kids, just the nannies (yes there were more than one). They think if they buy their kids whatever they want it will make them happy... but no. And in the end they were consumed by their own success, each career achievement demands more of their time. Only when they found from the police that one of their kids had become a drug addict did they realized their mistakes - by then it's too late.

Another example, I was in Singapore in a particular hospital's ICU unit. While in the waiting room I spoke to a young guy in his early 20s. He's there to visit his dying mother. He was depressed, as doctors have told him that his mother was brain dead and had zero chance of ever being conscious again. The only reason her heart is still beating is because they put her in life support. Now, he can accept the fact that his mother is dying and is willing to let her go. But not his wealthy elder sister, she insisted that their mother was kept on life support for as long as they can. By that time I met the young guy, it had been a year. If his sister had not been wealthy, the doctors would turn off the life support (as the patient was declared brain dead). However they could not do so without the permit of the family, and since they were wealthy they could afford it. That young guy confided he's tired of it all, the emotional strain of seeing his mother not alive nor dead everytime was just too much.

And let's not forget the rich and famous who ended up killing themselves.

About the 'guilt' or 'self-conscious' whatever you chose to call it when wearing your rolex... I say it's 95% from you and only 5% from the others' less fortunate than you are. You think you are happier, better, than them - therefore you have that 'guilty' or 'self-conscious' feelings. While the reality is you don't really know... in reality those who are not as wealthy as you, could be, and some are happier and more content than you are.

[Progman2000]

Originally Posted by Northbound

I think the word "guilt" in his thread should be changed to self conscious. I personally have not felt guilt as much as I have felt self conscious. I don't feel guilty for owning or purchasing these items but I've often felt self conscious when wearing them. Not wanting others to feel bad about having less or having it appear I'm flaunting a status symbol. The "Rolex Stigma" is there whether we like to admit it or not folks. You ask 8/10 average joes on the street what their opinion of Rolex is and I don't think you'll like their answer. I've done it. I personally admire the quality of the new Rolex pieces so I've looked past these things, but I can't say I'm completely immune or comfortable wearing them in public. The same goes for any other status symbols as well. These companies have worked hard in their marketing and price hikes to keep up these images. What's the running joke about BMW's? "What's the difference between a BMW and a porcupine?" BMW happens to be my favorite car manufacturer BTW The point is, Rolex watches are fantastic, but we can't deny the subject matter has some validity or say the OP is crazy for feeling this way. I've known others who have sold off all of theirs for having similar concerns. What's the answer? I don't know. Each to their own I guess. I certainly don't think everyone should live in mediocrity for the fear of not offending others, nor do I want to, but I do think there is a difference between appreciating luxury and flaunting it. It's up to each of us to decide where that line is.

Good post - I agree that 'self conscious' is a better term with this topic rather than 'guilt'...

[Headshrinker]

Northbound, in your example, I believe that your self consciousness is directly related to guilt. When one compares themselves to others regarding the notion of haves and not haves, one assumes a value on that relationship.
When you refuse to value people by what they have or do not have, you free yourself to be an "authentic" human being.

[engin33r]

Originally Posted by xvgnxcvj

Your relatives should be happy for your success. If they aren't, they aren't worth your time. [img]http://******.com/ws9eg[/img] [img]http://******.com/qogg5[/img]

Any reason why they should be happy? I mean, unless one has done things, good or bad, for his/her relatives - there is no reason for those relatives to feel one way or another.

[ming the merciless]

Originally Posted by MP5

They seem to all have moved state side. :D

Quite possibly.

[craniotes]

I only hang out with people who are more successful than me. And yes, I resent their APs, PPs, et al, while I'm stuck with a lowly Rolex.

Regards,
Adam

[yahoo_mks]

Originally Posted by Northbound

I think the word "guilt" in his thread should be changed to self conscious. I personally have not felt guilt as much as I have felt self conscious. I don't feel guilty for owning or purchasing these items but I've often felt self conscious when wearing them. Not wanting others to feel bad about having less or having it appear I'm flaunting a status symbol. The "Rolex Stigma" is there whether we like to admit it or not folks. You ask 8/10 average joes on the street what their opinion of Rolex is and I don't think you'll like their answer. I've done it. I personally admire the quality of the new Rolex pieces so I've looked past these things, but I can't say I'm completely immune or comfortable wearing them in public. The same goes for any other status symbols as well. These companies have worked hard in their marketing and price hikes to keep up these images. What's the running joke about BMW's? "What's the difference between a BMW and a porcupine?" BMW happens to be my favorite car manufacturer BTW The point is, Rolex watches are fantastic, but we can't deny the subject matter has some validity or say the OP is crazy for feeling this way. I've known others who have sold off all of theirs for having similar concerns. What's the answer? I don't know. Each to their own I guess. I certainly don't think everyone should live in mediocrity for the fear of not offending others, nor do I want to, but I do think there is a difference between appreciating luxury and flaunting it. It's up to each of us to decide where that line is.

Very well said -

[erling]

Not guilty!