ROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEX
29 September 2020, 06:15 AM | #91 |
"TRF" Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: london
Posts: 5,975
|
Interesting situation. I Don’t think these shenanigans are new at all. Social media has allowed instant cross-referencing in a way that allows us if inclined to get immediate information that 20 years ago may have seen a watch go through many sales and never be uncovered. I was told years ago about a specialist in the Uk that could recreate ancient lume.
__________________
@imrootbeer7 |
29 September 2020, 07:22 AM | #92 |
"TRF" Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Montreal
Watch: The Habs pick 1st!
Posts: 3,589
|
The art industry is always dealing with stolen property, touch ups and repairs. Hence the importance of provenance.
|
30 September 2020, 11:48 PM | #93 |
"TRF" Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: USA
Watch: where do i start??
Posts: 3,254
|
I think we aren't going to get a response from MM at this point.
You would think, if it was a simple misunderstanding, MM would want to clear it up quick instead of letting it go on. Perhaps there just isn't anything that can be said? The evidence is pretty strong as to what occurred. As Swish pointed out, speculation is dangerous game, however I feel as information comes in, it's important that our small community talks about it. I think it would be wrong to not bring these kinds of things to light as they unfold. This conversation made me look a little closer at things myself and saw some inconsistencies I myself in the past overlooked. I have also recently been informed that there is allegedly more than one watch involved which doesn't sound good. Makes me worry just how many watches have passed through MM hands and just how many were effected? We may never know the full extent. I then thought to myself, If Stephane was a victim, why doesn't he speak out? Perhaps it's a "can of worms" scenario? Perhaps this could effect watches that have been sold in the past that came from MM sold by Stephane? Again this is just speculation, but from what I also heard is that a former TRF member was behind the relume. Since it's speculation I don't want to mention his name. But I find it likely as I have found old threads here of MM inquiring about this former TRF member over a decade ago. I also think it's ironic that many of the domestic issues with vintage over the years all seem to be located in CA.. The higher quality "issues with vintage" that is. I think we all know MM has seen this thread and has chosen (like past members) not to respond to it. There is no positive way out to engage in this discussion in my opinion. If this is another thread that goes on the books as not addressed by those involved, then I think we have our answer. I think for myself, I have heard enough info from respected members within the watch community which is enough to make me stay away from these guys. As for the info above, I have only shared it because it all came from someone close to the source. I feel it is a bit more reliable than just hearsay. I am making my own personal conclusion that the person behind all of this has never been gone and has been quietly operating behind the scenes for some time filtering these watches into the market. This person is highly skilled and highly educated in vintage. |
30 September 2020, 11:55 PM | #94 |
2024 Pledge Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: US
Posts: 1,058
|
I've very interested in seeing what this relume job actually looks like, to further my education about this sort of thing. I'd love to see such convincing craftsmanship. As of a few days ago, all of the original images and listings referenced earlier in this thread appear to be gone/deleted. I also asked a few folks who posted here privately if they had links to any images of the dial, but I didn't have any luck (and thanks to those of you who were courteous to reply).
If anyone has images or links to images where I can see this dial (at least the "after" pics, if not "before" and "after"), can you please post them here or PM me? Thank you in advance! |
1 October 2020, 12:08 AM | #95 |
2024 ROLEX DATEJUST41 Pledge Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: NorCal
Watch: Yes!
Posts: 6,557
|
Vintage is filled with treacherous waters.
Whatever happened with James Dowling, who was a beloved expert? https://nypost.com/2016/07/17/billio...m-out-of-700k/ Now we have this with MM. At some point, it's either blind trust because these people are the "experts in the field", or it's a "simple mistake" at the cost of thousands of dollars. No one's perfect, but it definitely hurts to see - whether it's true manipulation or just an accident that unknowingly happened.
__________________
|
1 October 2020, 12:10 AM | #96 | |
"TRF" Member
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 7
|
Quote:
Regarding the observations of CA-based watch dealers, I would stay clear and far away. There are a few good ones, but more horrible ones, bringing down the average and increasing the chances of getting a lemon. So who can we trust? That's a great question. One that can only be met with controversy. But if you've been reading this thread, and the others recently brought to the public light, then you would know who you cannot trust. There is a thriving enterprise for vintage and pre-owned watches; beautifying vintage pieces with cosmetic enhances, false and deliberately misleading descriptions, etc. Good luck to everyone if they choose to ignore these findings. |
|
1 October 2020, 12:12 AM | #97 | |
"TRF" Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: USA
Watch: where do i start??
Posts: 3,254
|
Quote:
There is dial damage on the chapter ring between 12 and 1 that you can see is very similar if not the same. Before and after shots of the relume. Esp since it came from the same dealer, too much of a coincidence if you ask me. So much convo in this thread and no photo's. Hopefully this will do the thread some justice. These are not my photo's, they were just provided to me to share here. So don't shoot the messenger... |
|
1 October 2020, 12:36 AM | #98 | |
2024 Pledge Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: US
Posts: 1,058
|
Quote:
Have folks seen other Rolex watches from this era (early 60's 1675 PCG pieces, etc.) with original lume that's so perfectly even-looking? I'm wondering if a (re)lume job like this would arouse the suspicions of a highly trained eye before that highly trained eye knew it was relumed, or if there's literally nothing suspicious about the "after" pics. [And I know from earlier in this thread that the buyer was a highly trained eye, but of course he's just one person.] As an aside, by way of comparison, I'd love to see what a NOS/NIB 1675 PCG watch would look like, after 60 years, if it had literally never been worn. I'll probably never see that, though! |
|
1 October 2020, 12:47 AM | #99 | |
"TRF" Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: USA
Watch: where do i start??
Posts: 3,254
|
Quote:
It's a combination of dealer trust, education on vintage and gut feeling when you deal with a relume job like this. If it passes normal tests that collectors and dealers usually use, what else is left to go on? |
|
1 October 2020, 12:51 AM | #100 | |||
"TRF" Member
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Paris
Posts: 3,541
|
Quote:
Plus, the reasons ''fake OR overpriced''. How can you complain about something being overpriced. http://www.onthedash.com/docs/Bikoff_v_Dowling.pdf Quote:
Read the PDF please. This is how rumours start. The buyer paid way too much because he didn't do his homework. He bought an IWC Bund for 50k. Who is stupid? Quote:
|
|||
1 October 2020, 01:43 AM | #101 | |
"TRF" Member
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: michigan
Posts: 2,290
|
Quote:
the 6538 for 94k and tektite for $395k would bring 1.5-2m i'd imagine if they were all original and in decent shape. I'd assume there's a Dowling premium buying a watch from him. Just the price you pay knowing your getting a premium/rare piece. |
|
1 October 2020, 02:31 AM | #102 | |
"TRF" Member
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Long Island NY US
Watch: 1675 14060M 16622
Posts: 506
|
Case was dismissed.
Might be a good policy to check things of this nature out before one posts a query. https://www.casemine.com/judgement/u...09d33ea97b7175 Quote:
__________________
Rolex, Omega, Panerai, Chopard, Blancpain, Breitling, Seiko, Zenith, IWC, Tag Heuer, Bvlgari, Cartier, Movado, Tissot, Casio and Sinn, a few of my favorite things |
|
1 October 2020, 03:24 AM | #103 | |
"TRF" Member
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: US
Posts: 657
|
Quote:
|
|
1 October 2020, 03:33 AM | #104 |
"TRF" Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Real Name: Per
Location: Sweden
Watch: Gilt Rolex
Posts: 2,946
|
How often does people know where watches came from further than the seller? Most pieces offered have been on the market before and watches often change hands behind the scenes dealer to dealer as in this specific case. Dealers don’t ”find” all the watches they sell.
__________________
Instagram: @perj123 |
1 October 2020, 04:22 AM | #105 |
"TRF" Member
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: US
Posts: 657
|
I agree with the point made above as it relates to purchases in general. In this thread's case, there seems to be a lot of inconsistencies stated about who knew what and when that has not been made clear to many interested in a conclusion.
Related to vintage in general, some dealers may move a higher percentage of "top collector quality" than others. How they acquire stock is not always clear, since these pieces may have changed hands many times from original owners, collectors and dealers and provenance isn't always available. Original owners also may have had repair work done on a piece where original parts were replaced with more recent service parts (inserts, hands, etc.), even though the piece didn't change ownership. Only buying from collectors is also no guarantee, if you don't know how they acquired or if they didn't conduct a thorough evaluation at time of purchase. I subscribe to the view that each watch has to stand on it's own merit and be evaluated as such. One may also choose to just buy from those they feel warrant a high level of trust and stick with them. Either way, it doesn't mean you should take a pass from doing your own assessment and homework, so you are at peace with what you are getting at a price paid that works for you. |
1 October 2020, 04:45 AM | #106 | |
"TRF" Member
Join Date: Jan 2019
Real Name: Jim
Location: miami
Watch: GMT II 16760
Posts: 1,676
|
Quote:
After rereading the entire thread watchknut’s post #34 is the key. He states that when Stephane was question about the dial being Re lumed Stephane stated it was a different dial. Clearly false and fraudulent statement trying to cover his misdeed as watchknut points its the exact same dial. Based on that There’s no doubt in my mind as a buyer that Stephane’s name is mud in my book. As far as MM is concerned what took place between those two is for them to sort out. I reserve judgement on MM until proof comes out he deliberately scammed Stephane. But it seems clear to me that Stephane should have known and did know what he was buying and resold the watch without full disclosure. Cardinal sin in this business end of story. MM not responding has him going from one black eye to two even though there’s only circumstantial evidence in his involvement in the fraudulent sale to the buyer. Would be nice to hear another side of the story. Best to avoid both for now to be safe. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
|
1 October 2020, 05:10 AM | #107 | |
"TRF" Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Real Name: Per
Location: Sweden
Watch: Gilt Rolex
Posts: 2,946
|
Quote:
__________________
Instagram: @perj123 |
|
1 October 2020, 05:19 AM | #108 |
"TRF" Member
Join Date: Jan 2019
Real Name: Jim
Location: miami
Watch: GMT II 16760
Posts: 1,676
|
Understood. Fortunately for the buyer watchknut sniffed this one out. The scary part is that one of us may not be so fortunate in the future. Buy the seller Buy the seller is all I read as a newbie here not too long ago. These guys are The Sellers and look at the shit show they produced.
So it’s disturbing to a non expert such as myself who is interested in these types of pieces that I now don’t know who to trust. So I would think 3-4 times as opposed to once or twice before buying any piece. As PR stated this type of stuff certainly diminishes ones enthusiasm for the hobby. As much as I love this hobby I love my hard earned dollars more!! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
1 October 2020, 05:34 AM | #109 |
"TRF" Member
Join Date: Jan 2019
Real Name: Jim
Location: miami
Watch: GMT II 16760
Posts: 1,676
|
Moral of the story is the time and dedication needed for this hobby has just gone way up. You now have to determine what piece you want and put the time in to become your own expert in that piece!! Otherwise it’s best of luck.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
1 October 2020, 05:36 AM | #110 | |
"TRF" Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Real Name: Per
Location: Sweden
Watch: Gilt Rolex
Posts: 2,946
|
Quote:
Building your own knowledge is paramount. Having even more knowledgable friends helps. In the end it’s all about the watch. Regardless where it comes from. There’s no easy way unless you can source your watches directly from the original owners and hear their stories. Even then you don’t really have an idea what happened throughout the watch 40-50-60 years lifespan. It’s not supposed to be easy. Still stories like this hurt the hobby and makes you sad. Hopefully we learn and those that cheat others see that every once in a while reality catches up and makes you look stupid and dishonest. Something that may scare the next cheater away from doing bad things. Put on another pretty insert on this 1675, tuck it away for a while and then sell it to someone else to deal and no one will ever know where this piece ends up. It will never be sold cheap with that awesome relume disclosed. It will just dissapear to some unknowing buyer in the end.
__________________
Instagram: @perj123 |
|
1 October 2020, 05:57 AM | #111 |
2024 Pledge Member
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 5,962
|
I am more cynical that you, and I suspect that dealers often pass questionable watches around so that they can deliberately obscure the watch's past, with full knowledge of both parties. That's what I mean by "laundering" the watch.
__________________
@oldwatchdan on IG |
1 October 2020, 05:59 AM | #112 | |
"TRF" Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Real Name: Per
Location: Sweden
Watch: Gilt Rolex
Posts: 2,946
|
Quote:
Maybe we can save someone in the future by making this watch searchable on the internet. Serial is posted on the papers above. Rolex GMT-Master ref 1675 serial 503480.
__________________
Instagram: @perj123 |
|
1 October 2020, 07:08 AM | #113 |
"TRF" Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: USA
Watch: changes depending
Posts: 800
|
I agree with CFR, I keep thinking about a vintage Rolex, but the market scares me. These watches are too much money to chance being the guy that ends up with a laundered watch, either intentionally or unintentionally by the seller.
I live in a small town and travel to Atlanta once a year to go on a watch shopping trip. I don't get to handle enough vintage Rolex to feel comfortable spending that much without assurances. |
1 October 2020, 07:14 AM | #114 |
2024 Pledge Member
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 5,962
|
Yes, no doubt. Hence the plethora of 50 year-old watches in pristine original condition on IG.
__________________
@oldwatchdan on IG |
1 October 2020, 07:23 AM | #115 | |
"TRF" Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Real Name: Per
Location: Sweden
Watch: Gilt Rolex
Posts: 2,946
|
Quote:
The only lesson here is to be aware. Dangerous to start doubting everything. One must just not be naive.
__________________
Instagram: @perj123 |
|
1 October 2020, 07:49 AM | #116 |
"TRF" Member
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: US
Posts: 657
|
I think more common are swapped dials and hands. Taking a strong case with average or poor dial, source a better quality dial and/or hands is probably done more than many would want to know. Very hard to determine if done when correct dial type is matched to case SN and hands are also correct to the era. In those instances, I don't think it's a big issue or has a meaningful impact on the value.
|
1 October 2020, 08:13 AM | #117 | |
"TRF" Member
Join Date: May 2018
Location: NY
Posts: 676
|
Quote:
|
|
1 October 2020, 08:52 AM | #118 |
"TRF" Member
Join Date: Jan 2019
Real Name: Jim
Location: miami
Watch: GMT II 16760
Posts: 1,676
|
I would not have a problem with a nicer original untouched watch correct dial. It would be impossible to tell anyway.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
1 October 2020, 10:09 AM | #119 |
"TRF" Member
Join Date: Oct 2020
Real Name: Stephane
Location: Los Angeles
Watch: Rolex
Posts: 2
|
1675 occ
Dear Members,
My name is Stephane Medam. Please forgive my tardiness to this thread as I was just made aware of this discussion yesterday evening. I am not an active member here but I would like to make a statement about this circumstance. There is much debate as to what actually transpired with this 1675. I am here to speak for myself and myself alone. I cannot speak for Michael Morgan. I’ve been collecting for many years and I pride myself of owning every watch I sell. This is an important part of my business, because I would never personally sell a watch that I didn’t personally own first. I firmly believe in quality over quantity. I took receipt of this watch from Michael Morgan approximately 2 weeks ago. I thoroughly inspected the watch, as I have done with all my watches over the years. Looping, examining, UV testing and taking geiger readings from the watch are standard practices. This specific watch came from a trusted dealer, whom I have done business with in the past, like many others have. I saw no issues with this piece based on my years of experience in handling these types of watches. It was pointed out to me by an instagram user who knew the original owner of this timepiece and had informed me the watch was relumed. Once I was able to see photos of the original state of the watch, I immediately called FedEx and had them stop the shipment and revert it back to me. I should be collecting the watch tomorrow as it is currently stuck at the FedEx station. The buyer never received the watch. I stopped this sale and refunded my client right away. I spoke to Michael and of course informed him the watch will be returned to him. I never had a chance to make a formal statement because the original discussion was removed off of instagram by the OP. In all my years of collecting and selling watches, I have to say I have never seen a relume job like this one. It’s of course a very delicate hobby we have. Out of thousands of transactions over the years, it only takes one to hurt someone’s reputation. I want the members here to know I am happy someone brought this to my attention because I wouldn’t want this to happen to anyone. This has been an eye opening experience. It shows many of us, no matter how long you have been doing something, there is always someone out there that can replicate something to the next level that fools even the most discerning collectors and dealers. I don’t sell watches behind the scenes. Everything I own and sell is viewable on my website. I always try to be as transparent as possible with every transaction I make. Word of mouth is everything to me. I stand 100% behind every watch I sell, no questions asked. I truly hope everyone knows this was a sincere mistake that I take responsibility for. When the watch is returned, I am interested to study it a bit further just to see what information I can gather and share with our community to help prevent these types of relumed watches from being circulated into our collecting society. I am truly grateful for the relationships I have formed over the years of collecting and for the knowledge I continue to gain. Sincerely, Stephane M. Wordlywatches |
1 October 2020, 10:10 AM | #120 |
"TRF" Member
Join Date: Oct 2020
Real Name: Stephane
Location: Los Angeles
Watch: Rolex
Posts: 2
|
Dear Members,
My name is Stephane Medam. Please forgive my tardiness to this thread as I was just made aware of this discussion yesterday evening. I am not an active member here but I would like to make a statement about this circumstance. There is much debate as to what actually transpired with this 1675. I am here to speak for myself and myself alone. I cannot speak for Michael Morgan. I’ve been collecting for many years and I pride myself of owning every watch I sell. This is an important part of my business, because I would never personally sell a watch that I didn’t personally own first. I firmly believe in quality over quantity. I took receipt of this watch from Michael Morgan approximately 2 weeks ago. I thoroughly inspected the watch, as I have done with all my watches over the years. Looping, examining, UV testing and taking geiger readings from the watch are standard practices. This specific watch came from a trusted dealer, whom I have done business with in the past, like many others have. I saw no issues with this piece based on my years of experience in handling these types of watches. It was pointed out to me by an instagram user who knew the original owner of this timepiece and had informed me the watch was relumed. Once I was able to see photos of the original state of the watch, I immediately called FedEx and had them stop the shipment and revert it back to me. I should be collecting the watch tomorrow as it is currently stuck at the FedEx station. The buyer never received the watch. I stopped this sale and refunded my client right away. I spoke to Michael and of course informed him the watch will be returned to him. I never had a chance to make a formal statement because the original discussion was removed off of instagram by the OP. In all my years of collecting and selling watches, I have to say I have never seen a relume job like this one. It’s of course a very delicate hobby we have. Out of thousands of transactions over the years, it only takes one to hurt someone’s reputation. I want the members here to know I am happy someone brought this to my attention because I wouldn’t want this to happen to anyone. This has been an eye opening experience. It shows many of us, no matter how long you have been doing something, there is always someone out there that can replicate something to the next level that fools even the most discerning collectors and dealers. I don’t sell watches behind the scenes. Everything I own and sell is viewable on my website. I always try to be as transparent as possible with every transaction I make. Word of mouth is everything to me. I stand 100% behind every watch I sell, no questions asked. I truly hope everyone knows this was a sincere mistake that I take responsibility for. When the watch is returned, I am interested to study it a bit further just to see what information I can gather and share with our community to help prevent these types of relumed watches from being circulated into our collecting society. I am truly grateful for the relationships I have formed over the years of collecting and for the knowledge I continue to gain. Sincerely, Stephane M. Worldlywatches |
Tags |
iconic watch company , michael morgan |
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests) | |
|
|
*Banners
Of The Month*
This space is provided to horological resources.