<<< Gretzky vs. Ovechkin >>>

[V25V]

Originally Posted by SMD

Not so sure about this. Expansion has definitely diluted the talent pool.

No. Its bigger players. Specifically goalies and the size of their pads. Look at photos from goalies in G's time to now. Bigger/faster game than it was then as well. Def harder now but G is still a legend, still can't knock Ovi.

[SMD]

Originally Posted by V25V

No. Its bigger players. Specifically goalies and the size of their pads. Look at photos from goalies in G's time to now. Bigger/faster game than it was then as well. Def harder now but G is still a legend, still can't knock Ovi.

I understand the training, equipment, tech and all of that have changed the game. But there has also been a >50% increase in number of players in the NHL as well. Go back to 21 teams and yes I would agree.

[Krash]

Lot of good points here…

There are now 32 teams each with about 23 players. That’s a total of 736. Back in Gretzky’s prime, there were 21 teams with about 483 players. So that is approximately 50% more players in the league now.

If there were still 21 teams today, we’d have 253 less players at the professional level, and undoubtedly each team would be a lot more talented. This is because only the best of the best would be playing at the professional level.

However, I’m not sure that matters. I believe the players are better today. They’re bigger, faster, stronger, and in better condition. So I’m not sure the number of teams today should be a factor. I think Ovechkin is playing against much tougher competition than Gretzky did despite the number of teams and players.

With all that said, I still think Gretzky is the greatest of all time, and it’s not even close.


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[Dynamite_Kid19]

Originally Posted by Spartacus

In the time Ovie has played for the Caps rival Pens made it to 4 Stanley cups, winning 3. Players like Crosby and Mallon owned Ovie and the caps.

Ovie, great player, yes, should he be in the conversation of GOAT? No, only one cup and countless playoff letdowns.

Cups are a team award. Pittsburgh has had 2 great top 2 centers for a long time. It's no coincidence the 1 season Kuznetsov played like an actual #2 center, the Caps won the Cup. Ovie was never the problem with the Caps in the playoffs, other guys didn't carry their weight. Gretzky vs Ovie is an impossible debate because of eras. Ovie is amazing because of his consistency for so long. People always rag on Gretzky's era saying defense and goalies were trash but 1 guy did what he did during that time. He was so far ahead of his peers he will remain for me the greatest offensive player, nobody in any sport dominated like he did. If Ovie breaks the goal record he will be the greatest goal scorer, #1 is #1 but Gretzky will remain the greatest offensive player to me.

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[hambone1983]

Originally Posted by Kingsking

Wha doesn’t count and if it did then Howe is the all time nhl scoring leader with 975 total. But again it doesn’t count.

well, he still has 940 goals, even if the NHL doesn't recognize WHA stats. It's like the NCAA taking away wins from Joe Paterno; they still happened.

[Cru Jones]

Originally Posted by hambone1983

well, he still has 940 goals, even if the NHL doesn't recognize WHA stats. It's like the NCAA taking away wins from Joe Paterno; they still happened.

I’ve scored 1,080 goals in my pick up league. I guess that makes me the best ever. :)

[hambone1983]

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

I’ve scored 1,080 goals in my pick up league. I guess that makes me the best ever. :)

in the final year of the WHA, the Birmingham Bulls were the last place team. The next year 18 of their players were on a roster in the NHL, 5 of whom made at least one NHL all-star team and one (Michel Goulet) is in the hockey hall of fame. All this from the worst team in the WHA. It was a legitimate professional league regardless of whether the NHL counts the stats or not.

[JP.]

I think the biggest difference in the game now is that it's so much faster overall. In the 90's you had guys like Bure, Mogilny, Kariya and Selanne who were so much faster than other players and also there was much more time to give passes and make plays. Now all the guys are great skaters, the game is so fast that there is no time for great combinations. I think it's too fast. Old hockey was actually nicer to watch in many ways.

Can you imagine D-men like Derian Hatcher or Chris Pronger in today's game? No way. When the 2-line pass rule change happened, those large and slow D-men became dinosaurs immediately.

Another thing that has really changed in hockey is the goalies. I just watched a classic game between NHL stars and the Soviet Army team and damn the goalies allowed some stupid goals.

Blueline shots with no screen screen at all went in sometimes. And not only their skills have improved tremendously, also the equipment is much larger now.

However the change already happened when Gretzky and Lemieux were still playing. I think the transformation was in the early 90's. Sure they have still grown in size lately (I think).

[Blansky]

I find comparing players and the game from one era to another pretty much meaningless. If a player was great in his era, he would have been equally great in another era.

The game changes and evolves, as do the players, the coaching, the training and nutrition, and the equipment. Definitely the equipment. The curve and snap of the stick now not only adds incredible velocity but changed the way players actually hold their stick when they shoot.

The skates are better, and the padding is far lighter especially for goalies. It used to be leather and would actually get heavier as the game went on.

Goalie training from stand up, to floppers, to now butterfly impacted the ability to score as well as the length of the pads to almost eliminate the 5 hole. Originally goalies were not even allowed to drop on their knees to make a stop. Now they spend most of the game in a butterfly.

Some goalie changes, from Ken Dryden circa 1972 to Tampa bay now.

Interestingly Gordie Howe was in pretty decent shape back in the day. Imagine him with a composite stick, he would have put the puck through the end boards. And with the skate technology, a few players as well.

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by Blansky

I find comparing players and the game from one era to another pretty much meaningless. If a player was great in his era, he would have been equally great in another era.

The game changes and evolves, as do the players, the coaching, the training and nutrition, and the equipment. Definitely the equipment. The curve and snap of the stick now not only adds incredible velocity but changed the way players actually hold their stick when they shoot.

The skates are better, and the padding is far lighter especially for goalies. It used to be leather and would actually get heavier as the game went on.

Goalie training from stand up, to floppers, to now butterfly impacted the ability to score as well as the length of the pads to almost eliminate the 5 hole. Originally goalies were not even allowed to drop on their knees to make a stop. Now they spend most of the game in a butterfly.

Some goalie changes, from Ken Dryden circa 1972 to Tampa bay now.

Interestingly Gordie Howe was in pretty decent shape back in the day. Imagine him with a composite stick, he would have put the puck through the end boards.

Looks at the 5 hole on Dryden

Good summary and I agree with you.

[SMD]

Originally Posted by hambone1983

in the final year of the WHA, the Birmingham Bulls were the last place team. The next year 18 of their players were on a roster in the NHL, 5 of whom made at least one NHL all-star team and one (Michel Goulet) is in the hockey hall of fame. All this from the worst team in the WHA. It was a legitimate professional league regardless of whether the NHL counts the stats or not.

Same as baseball. Not even sure I am allowed to write the name of the league anymore, but it was also absolutely professional level and its stats are now included.

[Krash]

I recently watched some footage from the 70s. Couldn’t believe how slow the pace was by comparison. The game is definitely faster today. And the players are definitely much bigger too.

Back in the 80s, average size was 6 foot and less than 200 lbs. Today, average size for defensemen is 6’2” and over 200lbs. Many are much bigger than that, and they can skate too.

Again, I still take the side that Gretzky is the greatest player ever and it’s not even close. I also agree that Gordie Howe was a beast too. But the game is still totally different today than back then.


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[BraveBold]

For those referencing size of the league - that is just one part of the equation. The supply has grown tremendously as $$$ has increased and so too has population. Because of the $ the investment and competition to succeed (individual basis) has increased. The overall pool of ability has grown.

Depends on comparative eras and the starting points (and sport) but the overall skill level today is higher. I’d still put Gretzky near or at the top due to his utter dominance and the relative comparability of eras for hockey. But the increase in number of teams / players in the league is not diluting talent vs 30 years ago (vs what it could be today, yes!)

[Kingsking]

Gretzky scored his first 600 goals in 718 games.. he scored 294 in his next 770 games. What changed? Goaltending an defence. The game was played wide open in the 80's with games averaging 10 goals a game between teams. It was normal to have 25 plus 50 goal scorers in the league per season. Now a days you might have 3-4 guys hit 50 in a season an during the dead puck era which Ovechkin played the early part if his career in there were seasons where nobody got to 50 goals. Ovechkin also lost nearly 2 seasons to lockouts an the covid shortened season otherwise he would already be past Gretzky, It's so much harder to score goals in todays game. Not to discount Gretzkys greatness but different era's,players and games. If Ovechkin played in the 80's with his shot, power,speed combo he would have scored 1200 goals.

[JP.]

Originally Posted by Krash

I recently watched some footage from the 70s. Couldn’t believe how slow the pace was by comparison. The game is definitely faster today. And the players are definitely much bigger too.

Back in the 80s, average size was 6 foot and less than 200 lbs. Today, average size for defensemen is 6’2” and over 200lbs. Many are much bigger than that, and they can skate too.

Again, I still take the side that Gretzky is the greatest player ever and it’s not even close. I also agree that Gordie Howe was a beast too. But the game is still totally different today than back then.

I believe the teams were generally even bigger (or at least just as big) in the late 90's before the two line pass was removed. At least just as heavy.

For example Flyers 1997-1999 was full of giants. Lindros, LeClair, Therien, D.Kordic, Myhres, Otto, Gratton, McGilis, Vopat, McCarthy, Kjell Samuelsson all were over 100 kg. Berube and Renberg were the smaller players LOL.

At least it was close.

Vegas is now the biggest team.

Average height: 188 cm
Average weight: 93.5 kilograms

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by Kingsking

Gretzky scored his first 600 goals in 718 games.. he scored 294 in his next 770 games. What changed? Goaltending an defence. The game was played wide open in the 80's with games averaging 10 goals a game between teams. It was normal to have 25 plus 50 goal scorers in the league per season. Now a days you might have 3-4 guys hit 50 in a season an during the dead puck era which Ovechkin played the early part if his career in there were seasons where nobody got to 50 goals. Ovechkin also lost nearly 2 seasons to lockouts a the covid shortened season otherwise he would already be past Gretzky, It's so much harder to score goals in todays game…

I tend to agree with you on this.

[Blansky]

Originally Posted by Kingsking

Gretzky scored his first 600 goals in 718 games.. he scored 294 in his next 770 games. What changed? .

Obviously a lot of things changed as you say. Gretzky first 600 goals could be argued, he was playing with better players than his last batch of goals.

I remember watching the Oilers at Northlands Coliseum in the 80s and goals were like nothing we see now. Not just 2 on 1 passes to beat the goalie but maybe 3-4 passes in the slot and high slot to beat the poor goalie hung out to dry .And this was on the rush, not setups in the defensive zone.

On some nights they were setting guys up who were in the doghouse or needed to get their numbers up for bonuses and just kept passing it around until that guy had an empty net to shoot at. The Oilers talent level was unreal.

Once Gretzky got to LA and the other places, it was far more diluted.

I was trying to make a point with a hockey buddy I played with at one time who hated to lose, got really upset, and I said that I bet that Gretzky in his playing career probably lost more games than he actually won. I'm not sure if it's true, but Edmonton was probably no where near 500 in the early days, LA probably wasn't either when he got there, St Louis probably wasn't and not sure about the Rangers. I've never taken the time to try to dig out the stats, to see if I was right or not.

[Krash]

Originally Posted by JP.

I believe the teams were generally even bigger (or at least just as big) in the late 90's before the two line pass was removed. At least just as heavy.

For example Flyers 1997-1999 was full of giants. Lindros, LeClair, Therien, D.Kordic, Myhres, Otto, Gratton, McGilis, Vopat, McCarthy, Kjell Samuelsson all were over 100 kg. Berube and Renberg were the smaller players LOL.

At least it was close.

Vegas is now the biggest team.

Average height: 188 cm
Average weight: 93.5 kilograms

Yeah, you're right. I remember that team very well. I was born and raised in PA. I'm a huge Flyers fan.

[JP.]

Originally Posted by Krash

Yeah, you're right. I remember that team very well. I was born and raised in PA. I'm a huge Flyers fan.

Not really a fan of any NHL team but I watched them all.

Flyers was the most exciting team to watch back in the day.

Lindros was like Darth Vader of hockey. Whever he was on the ice something was about to happen... fight, huge hit or goal.

Great times.

[Krash]

Only 6 games in. OV has 2 goals, which I believe puts him on pace for slightly less than 30 goals for the year (doing the math in my head, but I’m pretty sure that’s right).

Not saying he can’t do it, but it’s a tall mountain to climb.

But again, it’s only 6 games in…


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[SMD]

Bumping given how OVI has been lighting things up.

[Kingsking]

Originally Posted by SMD

Bumping given how OVI has been lighting things up.

Been unlucky, still getting his shots off at his usual pace. Hi shooting % is half of his career average and his expected number of goals is more than double his current season total, sometimes things like this happen in sports. I still think at some point he starts getting some bounces and ends the year with 25-30 goals and passes Gretzky eventually.

[1st amg]

For some reason, I am always kind of secretly hoping he does not pass Gretzky in goals. Maybe it has to do with that I grew up in the Gretzky era and he is still my GOAT. Anyway, I cannot say that I am not happy that Ovi has slowed down immensely.

[SMD]

Saw this yesterday.

https://theathletic.com/5144384/2023...ring-analysis/

[Blansky]

Originally Posted by 1st amg

For some reason, I am always kind of secretly hoping he does not pass Gretzky in goals. Maybe it has to do with that I grew up in the Gretzky era and he is still my GOAT. Anyway, I cannot say that I am not happy that Ovi has slowed down immensely.

Absolutely agree.

Not an Ovi fan and never was. Early in his career he was a selfish and dirty player.

Now he's only hanging around for bragging rights. He's won 1 Stanley Cup and zero Olympic Gold Medals.

For a better comparison in his era Sidney Crosby has won 3 Stanley Cup and 2 Olympic Gold Medals.

[brandrea]

Wayne was a pretty decent set up man …





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[Krash]

67 games played so far this season. He’s at 16 goals and on pace for about 24 goals for the year. I’m not saying he won’t do it, but catching Gretzky is a big mountain climb. He’s 38 and getting up there. He’d have a much better shot if he scored 35 to 40 goals this season.


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[brandrea]

Trust me, I’m routing for Wayne here … I just thought it’s pretty interesting to see a record once thought untouchable now in jeopardy.

Maybe total points is untouchable … who knows.

[Krash]

Assuming he ends with 24 goals this year, he would have to average 16 goals per year over the next 3 years. At 38 years old, that would be highly impressive. But I suppose the Capitals will let him play as long as it takes.


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[brandrea]

Originally Posted by Krash

Assuming he ends with 24 goals this year, he would have to average 16 goals per year over the next 3 years. At 38 years old, that would be highly impressive. But I suppose the Capitals will let him play as long as it takes.


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Well we don’t know what the future holds …. But if we look at the last 5 years, it would appear as tho Ovi is the more productive goal scorer. Caveat of course as you say is we don’t know when he’ll quit





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