Patek or ALS

[vecca]

[QUOTE=enjoythemusic;13212063]Ok, someone has to say it... Neither, as for $100k am sure you know you can do far better.

Part of the reason I posted the original question is because I am not a watch expert. I would welcome other options and suggestions.

Thank you

[chimp98]

[QUOTE=vecca;13213560]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Ok, someone has to say it... Neither, as for $100k am sure you know you can do far better.



Part of the reason I posted the original question is because I am not a watch expert. I would welcome other options and suggestions.



Thank you

Can I ask why you picked PCC as the next watch? Is the calendar complication a hard requirement? I agree with all the comments so far, especially with the Dato being very top heavy and Patek's elegant case design. I think ALS has an edge on the movement design - I still get mesmerized every time looking at a Dato case back.

I have slowly shifted my collection over the years to smaller sized pieces for comfort. An example and something you may want to consider is instead of the Dato, have you looked at the 1815 Chrono? Essentially the same beautiful movement without the calendar complication but much more comfortable to wear. I traded in my first gen Dato for the first gen 1815 Chrono and I couldn't be happier since.

I never owned the 5270 but I have a 5170 which shares the same base movement. This is another permanent piece in my collection.PXL_20231202_220027353.PORTRAIT.ORIGINAL~2.jpgPXL_20231202_220124494.PORTRAIT.ORIGINAL~2.jpg

[RyanO]

Originally Posted by agsstructures

Patek for me!

Beautiful - one of the greats.


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[RyanO]

I voted Patek of the two!




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[Gamut]

In my modest experience with watches from each brand, Pateks feel like they were designed to be worn, and to compliment the wearer's character. In comparison, Langes feel like they were designed to be admired, especially from the back.

[agsstructures]

Two beautiful pieces, love both straps especially the 5170!

[Bmats]

I didn’t have anything close to that kind of heavy hitter for a Lange, but my 1815 never really fit great as I have a smaller wrist. The hockey puck shape case just didn’t work. For whatever reasons Pateks cases just fit bitter, even if the same general dial size.

So I’d definitely try both on.

[vecca]

[QUOTE=chimp98;13216491]

Originally Posted by vecca

Can I ask why you picked PCC as the next watch? Is the calendar complication a hard requirement? I agree with all the comments so far, especially with the Dato being very top heavy and Patek's elegant case design. I think ALS has an edge on the movement design - I still get mesmerized every time looking at a Dato case back.

I have slowly shifted my collection over the years to smaller sized pieces for comfort. An example and something you may want to consider is instead of the Dato, have you looked at the 1815 Chrono? Essentially the same beautiful movement without the calendar complication but much more comfortable to wear. I traded in my first gen Dato for the first gen 1815 Chrono and I couldn't be happier since.

I never owned the 5270 but I have a 5170 which shares the same base movement. This is another permanent piece in my collection.Attachment 1428742Attachment 1428743

Thanks for your response. I guess I am attracted to the calendar complication. As much as I like the 5170 and 1815 Chrono, I always end up being drawn back to the PCC.

[joli160]

I would go Lange, movement architecture and finishing is in a league of its own.
The dial is also much more legible imho.

You have a nice dilemma, good luck in making the decision which gives you the biggest smile.

[Gebbeth]

I think the 1815 looks more harmonious, with the subdials a better size than the 5170 which look a little too oversized and too spread out from center. The pushers are also spaced out better from the crown on the 1815. The blued hands are a nice contrast to the ivory/white dial. The pulsation scale is a nice touch.

I am not a huge fan of Breguet numerals too.

As for architecture of the movement, they are pretty similar, but the hand engraved balance cock is definitely a plus and the German silver is a nice hue.

Obviously, from my opinion of the aesthetics, I favor the 1815.

But from a value retention point of view, it's the Patek.

[dauster]

Isn't the patek 5270P like 150-180k preowned? If that's the case I'd buy a regualr 5270 for like 120 and save the rest or buy another watch down the line.

But if your budget is less than 100k and you care about money I'd go dato as well

https://www.europeanwatch.com/watch/...-Pl-52678.html

https://www.europeanwatch.com/watch/....03-51998.html

https://www.europeanwatch.com/watch/...18K-52078.html

[bob101]

I’m a bit old school but I’d go for a Patek 3940 and have a separate Lange 1815 chronograph or a Patek 5070g.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by bob101

I’m a bit old school but I’d go for a Patek 3940...

3940 is a great choice.

[le_baron]

Originally Posted by thetahoess

Are you more of a classic guy or an attitude guy? If you're into classic beauty, there is no watch more so than the Patek 5270 IMO. If you're into high horology with an edge, I would go for the Lange. The other consideration is that if you're looking for something that most people will not know, Lange definitely fits that bill.

B

I agree. I also think you need to try on each option, ideally multiple times.

[WatchEater666]

Originally Posted by vecca

Thanks for all the responses... I love the 5970, but that's more than I would like to spend.

A few of you have suggested there are others (in that price range - $100k+/-) that you would consider. I'm all ears.

Used or new?

Really most independents will make a much better watch for the $.

Romain Gauthier, Mb&f, Armin Strom, Gronefeld, maybe a little more and a used Signature 1 from Greubel is in reach. All used.

Mb&f has a lot of killer pieces sub 100k.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by WatchEater666

Really most independents will make a much better watch for the $.

Romain Gauthier, Mb&f, Armin Strom, Gronefeld, maybe a little more and a used Signature 1 from Greubel is in reach. All used.

Mb&f has a lot of killer pieces sub 100k.

^^^ sooo much this


-------

OP, you surely know it is no longer peak 1960s Holy Trinity marketing, time has brought forth a far better selection of choices from true independants.

[agriculture&watches]

PP is a king for me

[rossi46]

1815 Chronograph. Back and front much more aesthetically interesting!

[2000-NJDEVILS]

To the OP -
Both are FANTASTIC!
Can’t tell you what you should like and wear.
You have to make that decision yourself.
But You do realize these are very sophisticated DRESS WATCHES???!!!
And Under no circumstances could these be “Daily Worn” like your DD 40.
Neither are water proof and both are very complicated, with repairs starting at $5 to 10K.
And you will need repairs and service every 3-4 years - these watches will cease when not serviced - Rolex can go 10-20 years without a service.
I would seriously consider spending some time at Geary’s (The PP AD in Beverly Hills) and try them on and pick the brains of the sales reps there….
Let us all know what direction you go in.

[Watchlurker11]

Originally Posted by WatchEater666

Really most independents will make a much better watch for the $.

is this really the case? I haven't looked at the market closely but recently went to a jewelry store with a pretty robust selection of independents and my impression was IF you did not ascribe value to low production or scarcity, pricing was much higher vs similar complications with larger houses (even the lange / VCs of the world). There were so many 80k-160k watches where i was just like, "why?"

[WatchEater666]

Originally Posted by Watchlurker11

is this really the case? I haven't looked at the market closely but recently went to a jewelry store with a pretty robust selection of independents and my impression was IF you did not ascribe value to low production or scarcity, pricing was much higher vs similar complications with larger houses (even the lange / VCs of the world). There were so many 80k-160k watches where i was just like, "why?"

Yes, especially the brands I posted. Voutilainen and Gauthier annihilate any pp/ap/vc in the same price range. It’s not even close.

[vliberman]

Originally Posted by WatchEater666

Yes, especially the brands I posted. Voutilainen and Gauthier annihilate any pp/ap/vc in the same price range. It’s not even close.

To be frank, none of the independents listed by you offer comparably complicated watches in that price range. Take PC, please suggest what one would get for 100k from MB&F or Voutilainen or any other listed brands?

[WatchEater666]

Originally Posted by vliberman

To be frank, none of the independents listed by you offer comparably complicated watches in that price range. Take PC, please suggest what one would get for 100k from MB&F or Voutilainen or any other listed brands?

A used perp cal from Mb&f just sold used for 120 a few weeks ago on loupethis

[vliberman]

Isn’t that like 20% more than budget and probably 50% more than comparable PP or ALS (not opining on value, just looking at facts). Let me reiterate, in todays market, nothing done by mentioned indie brands can be had for 100k

[WatchEater666]

Originally Posted by vliberman

Isn’t that like 20% more than budget and probably 50% more than comparable PP or ALS (not opining on value, just looking at facts). Let me reiterate, in todays market, nothing done by mentioned indie brands can be had for 100k

OP said around 100k, not 100k

[Watchlurker11]

Originally Posted by WatchEater666

Yes, especially the brands I posted. Voutilainen and Gauthier annihilate any pp/ap/vc in the same price range. It’s not even close.

I'm not particularly familiar with either and its difficult b/c most retailers have 'price on request' but i'm seeing a hodinkee article on the Voutilainen Vingt-8 ISO which was priced at 72k CHF in 2017 for a time-only watch.

osterjewelers (which i believe is authorized and selling at MSRP) is showing a retrograde (what looks to be a simple, not even annual) calendar for 135k (sold)

hodinkee has an article with a romain gauthier time-only prestige HM with pricing of 60k back in 2018 with the only complication being a micro rotor.

This seems consistent with my earlier observation that it seems like independents price well above comparable watches from 'top-3' level brands (i'm not making a call on whether it is or is not WORTH it. but in the same way that a Lange would price above a JLC for a similarly complicated watch, there seems to a significant premium for independents even over a PP/ALS unless i'm missing something).

[Watchlurker11]

Originally Posted by WatchEater666

Yes, especially the brands I posted. Voutilainen and Gauthier annihilate any pp/ap/vc in the same price range. It’s not even close.

Originally Posted by vliberman

Isn’t that like 20% more than budget and probably 50% more than comparable PP or ALS (not opining on value, just looking at facts). Let me reiterate, in todays market, nothing done by mentioned indie brands can be had for 100k

^ this. at the aforementioned retailer, six-figures was the norm for independents for watches that didn't strike me as 'grand complication' in nature.

[rolexandlange]

My personal experience dealing with ALS, Rolex, and AP on servicing and after sales needs far eclipses what one gets from PP, where intake and service quote takes months alone. I've also heard QC, servicing, and response from some independents such as FPJ leaves the customer wanting. When I make the purchase I like to be comfortable that the brand will stand behind the watch and attentively service the watch and its customer for decades. Of course there is always a risk things can change over time.

[Watchlurker11]

Originally Posted by rolexandlange

My personal experience dealing with ALS, Rolex, and AP on servicing and after sales needs far eclipses what one gets from PP, where intake and service quote takes months alone. I've also heard QC, servicing, and response from some independents such as FPJ leaves the customer wanting. When I make the purchase I like to be comfortable that the brand will stand behind the watch and attentively service the watch and its customer for decades. Of course there is always a risk things can change over time.

I serviced with FPJ in the last year and didn't have any issues. lead-times were similar as a serviced Lange (a few months). I would agree that the movement seems less...robust than certainly a rolex and maybe a lange but nothing that would have dissuade me from owning.

I also wonder about serviceability for some of these smaller independents (i don't consider Journe to be in that bucket)