321 vs 3861

[Breizh]

Hello Omega enthusiasts.

I am new to the brand and wanted to add a speedmaster to my collection. It would be my third and final watch.
I have an Annual Calendar Nautilus and a Sub. I thought adding an Omega chronometer would be a nice addition.

I have tried the 3861 and really liked it. But I was thinking adding my name to the list for a 321 for all the known reasons (one watchmaker per movement, more handmade etc...) and I honestly think at a price close to a Daytona, it's a bargain given that the latter is mass produced.

However, reading the Omega forum, there seem to be a lot of disagreement with my thinking.
Is the 321 not worth twice the price of a 3861?
Is it not special enough to be at equal msrp of a Daytona? (never mind that you can't get them for less that 30k).

I'd appreciate inputs from all the Omega enthusiasts

[Gilthoniel]

The finishing on the 321 Speedy Edwhite is a cut above the rest.

It’s made by one watchmaker from start to finish, and of all the Speedmaster’s I’ve had before, the difference in QC and finishing is very clear to see and feel.

If budget allows for it, go for the 321.


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[logo]

No doubt the 321 is a beauty. However, for me personally, I just don’t like the straight lugs and lack of a crown guard on speedmasters as much, which makes it such that no matter how nice the finishing is I don’t think it’s for me. If it had twisted lugs and crown guards (and ideally a metal bezel...), I’d go 321 all day and twice on Sunday over a Daytona. The 1861 and 3861 are absolute bargains compared to a Daytona as well, arguably both in the same league as the Daytona - and many prefer them over the Daytona. Yes the 1861 and 3861 movements are not as beautiful as the 321, but to me the movement alone does not outweigh the rest of the aesthetics (and I like hesalite, which means the movement isn’t visible anyway), and as such I’d rather buy a vintage 321 in the configuration I like over the new Ed White.

[arcadelt]

While the marketing spin (or market misunderstanding) is that the movement is made by one watchmaker, the parts are mass produced and the watch is assembled by one watchmaker. If you think about it, that is no different than any watch will be after it has its first full service. Anyway, it certainly is a nice watch, and the movement tugs at the historical heartstrings, but it is only worth twice a new (and technically superior) co-axial Speedmaster if you think so as a buyer. In that way, it’s no different to buying a Daytona in the grey marketplace, because that is also only worth the cost over MSRP if you think so as a buyer.

[Breizh]

Originally Posted by arcadelt

While the marketing spin (or market misunderstanding) is that the movement is made by one watchmaker, the parts are mass produced and the watch is assembled by one watchmaker. If you think about it, that is no different than any watch will be after it has its first full service.

That's an interesting point...thanks

[Stevec14]

There’s lots of love for the 321 over on OF......

I’ll speak as a biased owner of a 321. It’s 100% worth it. It’s a better finished watch, the ceramic bezel and sapphire are beautifully done (no milky rings here) and the bracelet is one of the best in the business.

The dial is also different with less text and clutter.

One thing, and a good point above, is that it wears very differently to the 3861. The standard lyre lug speedy has a far larger footprint. You could try a FOIs or something similar on, but that will tell only some of the story (the 321 is thinner than those).

As you have 2 lovely and hard to get watches, I’d add a third in the 321. If you decide to go for it, good luck in sourcing one. I wouldn’t necessarily compare to a Daytona as they are very different watches, but the 321 holds its own in the more expensive price bracket IMO.

Here’s a comparison photo of my 321 and Apollo 11 3861 - shows the size difference.






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[AEC]

There is a lot to admire about a standard Speedmaster Pro: intriguing blend of shapes and finishes on its case, all-satin finish on its bracelet, and the unique luster of its acrylic crystal. It makes sorta the perfect partner alongside your Sub in the tool box (assuming your Sub is a standard model in steel).

I think the question in your mind should be answered by your heart: how will feel owning and wearing the standard classic versus owning and wearing the more special 321? I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, but there's no right or wrong here because our connection to these little machines is mainly emotional, so I say listen to what your heart tells you in this decision.

I love my standard Speedmaster Pro

[Breizh]

Stevec14, thank you very much for your input and pictures.
Since there isn't any to see in the flesh, real life pictures are very helpful.

AEC and Gilthoniel thank you very much also for your input as well, much appreciated it

[sensui]

The idea of worth and value is subjective to the individual. Is the 321 worth it over the 3861? Quickly off the top of my head how I find the 321 better:

1) Far better finishing inside and out.
2) Historical aspect of actually taking part in space expeditions/missions.
3) Beautiful sapphire dome that creates no milky ring (only sapphire Speedy that I know does this)
4) One watchmaker assembly thing...if you believe it....sounds a bit like marketing but let's assume it might be true.
5) More cool vintage throwback nods aesthetically vs the 3861 (which has a couple also)

The 3861 is definitely a more modern movement and has more bells and whistles. Technically it's a more superior movement in accuracy....reliability has yet to be seen but I wouldn't bet against it with how well the 1861s have performed and the changes to 3861 isn't radical.

Is this worth double to you? I don't really know....you have to answer that for yourself. A lot of people have made their decisions and it's not always a blanket yay or nay.

[Gilthoniel]

Originally Posted by sensui

The idea of worth and value is subjective to the individual. Is the 321 worth it over the 3861? Quickly off the top of my head how I find the 321 better:

1) Far better finishing inside and out.
2) Historical aspect of actually taking part in space expeditions/missions.
3) Beautiful sapphire dome that creates no milky ring (only sapphire Speedy that I know does this)
4) One watchmaker assembly thing...if you believe it....sounds a bit like marketing but let's assume it might be true.
5) More cool vintage throwback nods aesthetically vs the 3861 (which has a couple also)

The 3861 is definitely a more modern movement and has more bells and whistles. Technically it's a more superior movement in accuracy....reliability has yet to be seen but I wouldn't bet against it with how well the 1861s have performed and the changes to 3861 isn't radical.

Is this worth double to you? I don't really know....you have to answer that for yourself. A lot of people have made their decisions and it's not always a blanket yay or nay.

Yes no milky ring! It’s that beautiful! And the bracelet is super amazing too.

Here’s a pic of mine




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[toneafficianado]

I just bought a Speedy this week!
SO many models to go with so I empathise with your decision.
I went for a 2016 mint 1861 Hesalite.
Works great. Looks great. Not very expensive so less worry to wear.
I recommend just getting the standard model. A brand new 3861 would have been fifty percent dearer. Not worth it to me. But you have to decide what your own priorities are.


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[Gilthoniel]

I have had many Speedmasters in the past and even I had this dilemma of whether to go for the 321 or not.

I got the call and when I went or collect it, I compared it with the new speedy. I can assure you, the 321 is a beauty on its own.

Truly a step and a cut above.

I’d say, it’s the one and only Speedmaster you need… if you have the budget for it, go for it.


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[Breizh]

Beautiful indeed!
Thank you so much for the picture

[kauffee]

Interesting to me that the sapphire crystal on the 321 has no milky ring, but it is still somewhat present on the 3861. I’ve always been disappointed by sapphire crystals on Speedmasters when held side-by-side with hesalite.

[illiguy]

The 321 is amazing. Proving to be as scarce as we could deduce by the single watchmaker anachronism at Omega.

As for milky ring, I believe an ever slight depression in the dial prevents this with sapphire. I know some folks complain about the lack of Hesalite, but sapphire in this instance works given the price.

[1William]

Either/Or is a fun question on two great watches. The 321 is a great looking watch and the movement and assembly impress me. With that said, I own a 1861 and could not be more pleased for what it is and for how much I paid. The 3861 is cool but until the prices calm down and we get back into standard discounts and preowned prices being significantly less, the 1861 works. If you could source a 321 for retail right now and you are the guy that buys a watch that is that special then go for it. No loss or questions. More than likely you will have to wait and in the interim why not pick up the 3861 or the 1861 and get to owning a Speedmaster and enjoying the wear, look and feel. It could be a longer wait and you have it covered then in you three watch collection. You might find the 3861 or 1861 is a good option or you might find that the 321 is just right. Good luck and let us know what you decide.

[Oyster Sauce]

Since this is going to be your last watch, and it will join a Nautilus and Sub, the 321 would be a fitting addition. Just such a special watch. If I could only have one modern watch, the 321 would be in the running for it. Best wishes

[Gilthoniel]

Yes if it’s your one and only Speedy, just go for the 321!

Btw the sapphire also has the omega logo embossed in the centre like the hesalite on regular speedies




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[SSGMT]

Originally Posted by Gilthoniel

Yes if it’s your one and only Speedy, just go for the 321!

Btw the sapphire also has the omega logo embossed in the centre like the hesalite on regular speedies




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Excellent pictures of the 321! I agree with what had been said about the 321, it’s a beautiful watch that would fit well with your collection. Your Patek is amazing and the Sub is such a flexible, do anything watch. To add an Omega Moonwatch to your collection would round it out nicely. I have a few Speedmaster’s and always wanted to get a 321 movement. Once the new 321 was announced, I knew I had to have it, you get the classic feel of a bygone era with new manufacturing techniques and a warranty. The simplicity of the dial and the way the watch wears makes it one of my favorites. To me, the Speedmaster dials are all very legible, I have attached a picture of my 321 next to my Snoopy for comparison. Let us know which Speedmaster you decide to add to your collection!


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[Breizh]

Interesting how they look the same size besides the 2mm difference...

[sensui]

Originally Posted by Breizh

Interesting how they look the same size besides the 2mm difference...

It's because the real difference is just the crown guards in measurements. Otherwise the diameter is almost identical. Biggest difference in wear will be the curved lugs on the professional cases vs the straight lugs like on the FOIS and 321.

[gnuyork]

Originally Posted by Breizh

Interesting how they look the same size besides the 2mm difference...

It's because they really are. The 42mm measurement of the 3861 includes the asymmetrical crown guards. The dial and bezel dimensions are identical.

As for the choice between the two, that's a tough call. I have the 3861 and I absolutely love it. Would I love the 321 more? Maybe... I do not prefer the straight lugs though, it makes the watch *appear* thicker on the wrist and I do not like thick watches. The 3861 wears fairly slim for a chronograph.

[Breizh]

Thank you very much to all for your advice and feedback. Much needed and appreciated.
I have to hang out with the Omega crowd more! what a pleasant group

I am leaning towards the 321.
Talking to different Omega Boutiques, it seems like it is not impossible to get, just a long wait, which I don’t mind. If my patience runs out, I can always get a 3861 which I know I like.

It also seems that they are a lot more forward in what it is and is not possible and wait times than the always vague and shifty Rolex and Patek ADs I’ve dealt with. Quite a refreshing and welcome change

[Travelller]

Originally Posted by Breizh

...I have tried the 3861 and really liked it. But I was thinking adding my name to the list for a 321 for all the known reasons (one watchmaker per movement, more handmade etc...)...Is the 321 not worth twice the price of a 3861?:

I took the liberty of quoting my review of the Caliber 321:

Originally Posted by Travelller

...The technical evolution of the Speedmaster is clearly through the 3861 which is now used for all current production Speedmasters. The point being that Omega re-introduced the 321 for fans of vintage Speedmasters and their iconic movements...

The price of admission... is indeed high. If like me, you're PASSIONATE about references from the chronograph's glory days, the Speedmaster Caliber 321 "Ed White" is a very special reference. The rebirth of the iconic 321 movement housed in a tribute to the well-known and loved Speedmaster reference, the 105.003, is pretty much Speedmaster nirvana. If you're more pragmatic than nostalgic, a new 3861-powered Speedmaster may make a lot more sense... particularly when factoring in the considerable price difference. Not only does the METAS-certified 3861 represent a substantial upgrade, you can also enjoy a few of the historical details shared by the new Caliber 321, such as the stepped dial, DON bezel, etc. ...

So you & I are in different situations; I already had two Speedmasters when I decided on the 321 as my third. I'm very interested in NASA's contributions to space exploration. I'm even more interested in the history of chronographs so that the new Caliber 321 was an easy decision for me.

If for whatever reason, I had to downsize my collection, it could very well be that the 321 would be the one Speedmaster I'd choose to hold on to. Having said that, I'd be more inclined to direct someone like yourself towards a Speedmaster Professional. It's "the" moonwatch and its unique "lyre" lugs and asymmetrical case make it a visually appealing and unique watch for a collection like yours.

As for the build quality, assembly etc. I'm not certain that the Caliber 321 is soo much better than a mass-produced production Speedmaster. As someone above noted, each 321 is completely assembled by one watchmaker (from a team of watchmakers assigned to this reference). Is this really better than a production watch that goes through an "assembly line" process... ? I honestly can't say... . I can say that my 321 is perfect in terms of assembly, free of dust etc. and that the mechanics work well and everything's aligned. But I can also say that for my "production" Speedy Tuesday, so...

Keep in mind that while the Caliber 321 goes through a unique assembly process, the parts are manufactured just like all others and there are manufacturing tolerances that affect the Caliber 321 just as any other watch in the Omega catalog.

So, price aside, I would say you really need to be invested in the history of chronographs and Speedmasters (in connection with NASA) before considering the Caliber 321. The 2021 (3861) Speedmaster Professional is an exceptional watch and very much the "moonwatch" so it should more than satisfy any watch lover looking to add a Speedmaster to their diverse collection

Regarding the sapphire crystal - please see my review post for a practical clarification of the differences in geometry, etc.

p.s. ..but damned if the Caliber 321 isn't one awesome-looking reference...

[Xv1]

Originally Posted by Travelller

I took the liberty of quoting my review of the Caliber 321:


So you & I are in different situations; I already had two Speedmasters when I decided on the 321 as my third. I'm very interested in NASA's contributions to space exploration. I'm even more interested in the history of chronographs so that the new Caliber 321 was an easy decision for me.

If for whatever reason, I had to downsize my collection, it could very well be that the 321 would be the one Speedmaster I'd choose to hold on to. Having said that, I'd be more inclined to direct someone like yourself towards a Speedmaster Professional. It's "the" moonwatch and its unique "lyre" lugs and asymmetrical case make it a visually appealing and unique watch for a collection like yours.

As for the build quality, assembly etc. I'm not certain that the Caliber 321 is soo much better than a mass-produced production Speedmaster. As someone above noted, each 321 is completely assembled by one watchmaker (from a team of watchmakers assigned to this reference). Is this really better than a production watch that goes through an "assembly line" process... ? I honestly can't say... . I can say that my 321 is perfect in terms of assembly, free of dust etc. and that the mechanics work well and everything's aligned. But I can also say that for my "production" Speedy Tuesday, so...

Keep in mind that while the Caliber 321 goes through a unique assembly process, the parts are manufactured just like all others and there are manufacturing tolerances that affect the Caliber 321 just as any other watch in the Omega catalog.

So, price aside, I would say you really need to be invested in the history of chronographs and Speedmasters (in connection with NASA) before considering the Caliber 321. The 2021 (3861) Speedmaster Professional is an exceptional watch and very much the "moonwatch" so it should more than satisfy any watch lover looking to add a Speedmaster to their diverse collection

Regarding the sapphire crystal - please see my review post for a practical clarification of the differences in geometry, etc.

p.s. ..but damned if the Caliber 321 isn't one awesome-looking reference...

Thank you for this great (and balanced) perspective! Super helpful!

[Breizh]

Sounds like I have to get both now!
Again, thank you so much for the in-depth reply.

[Darewing]

What did you end up getting in the end? I’m in the same dilemma..

[911fever]

Beautiful photos in this thread!

[brandrea]

I realize this is an old thread ... maybe the OP has already made his choice.

Regardless, I feel qualified to give you my opinion as I went through this same conundrum last summer.

I always wanted to add a chronograph to my modest collection, but I never took to the Daytona. The Speedmaster seemed like a logical choice so I tried the 1861, and the 3861 both in hesalite and Sapphire. Not to disparage, they are great references but they just didn't float my boat for some reason.

After much research I decided to go whole hog, and pony up for the 321. The history, the finishing (@travelller can articulate vastly better than I ).

I won't lie, not being able to try one on or see one in the flesh was disconcerting to say the least but I'm certainly glad I decided to pull the trigger.

As a friend of mine likes to say, everyone deserves to have 'one good thing' and the 321 feels just like that. It's a very special watch to me.

IMG_60921.jpg

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[Travelller]

Originally Posted by brandrea

...

Nice shot