Patek’s Quiet Downgrading of the new Nautilus and Aquanaut

[subtona]

For what it’s worth,

unlike Rolex that states WR directly on the dial and many brands that stamp it on the case back.

Looking at my 5711, I maybe missing it, I do not find any indication of WR on the actual watch.


panerai has done this as well reducing many of their models to 100m that were historically 300m in addition to swapping out the typical screw back for a snap back.

[Will_NL]

Looking at the facts

The terminology water resist has to meet, since 2010, the following ISO norm IF you want to mention the water resistance on the watch itself, next to all the tests and requirements

ISO 22810:2010, Horology – Water-resistant watches , has been drawn up to meet a global demand for clear and unambiguous specifications in this area. It clarifies the terms used, defines the criteria to be met by the product and specifies the marking which may appear on the product.

That means that 50 mtr ofr5 bars signifies that you can swim with your watch:

Water resistance rating Suitability Remarks
Splash/rain resistant is not suitable for showering, bathing, swimming, snorkeling, water related work, fishing, and diving.

Water Resistant 3 atm or 30 m is Suitable for everyday use.

Water Resistant 5 atm or 50 m Suitable for everyday use, showering, bathing, shallow-water swimming, snorkeling, water related work, fishing. Splash/rain resistant. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:NOTRS 1) Not suitable for diving.

Water Resistant 10 atm or 100 m is suitable for recreational surfing, swimming, snorkeling, sailing and water sports. Not suitable for deep water diving.

Water Resistant 20 atm or 200 m is suitable for professional marine activity, serious surface water sports and skin diving. Suitable for skin diving.

Diver’s 100 m Minimum ISO standard (ISO 6425) for scuba diving at depths not suitable for saturation diving. Diver’s 100 m and 150 m watches are generally old(er) watches.

Dynamic movements adds pressure trhough movement in thin fluids, and if you want to skip algebra, the last sentence says that it will not addup to more then half a Bar, of 5 mtr by swimming with your watch:

Dynamic pressure is the pressure induced by movement in dense fluids, in the case of a diver typically the pressure caused by his swimming movements in water. A dynamic pressure of 1 standard atmosphere (100 kPa) (for example the flow of a river) on the surface of a hand (assuming the surface of an “average hand” of 150 cm2) will correspond to a dynamic pressure induced force of 1,500 newtons (340 lbf). In order to calculate the dynamic pressure caused by a fast underwater swimming movement of a diver the following formula can be applied:

P = 1⁄2 ρv 2

Where P is the dynamic pressure, ρ is the density of the fluid and v is the speed. For a fast swimming movement of 10 m/s in typical sea water this works out as:

ρ = 1026 kg/m3

v = 10 m/s

P = 1⁄2 × 1026 kg/m3 × (10 m/s)2 ≈ 51,300 Pa ≈ 0.5063 atm

This calculation shows that fast swimming movements will not create dynamic pressure surges exceeding 0.5 standard atmospheres (51 kPa) (the equivalent of 5 metres of water pressure).

Swimming 10 mtrs (33 feet) per seconde is about 36 km/h (22 miles/h) an that is quite hard to do …


Omega says this:
All current OMEGA watches are water resistant to the depth defined by the model specifications, provided that the components ensuring the water resistance are intact. This means that an OMEGA watch that is water resistant to 30 metres can be worn for swimming at depths of up to 30 metres underwater for extended periods without restriction.

https://www.omegawatches.com/customer-service/faq

IWC says the same thing:

https://www.iwc.com/nl/en/specials/water-resistant.html

So by definition Patek 30m is swimable, and if they state that the watch can actually survive 30m under the surface the that would be a huge upgrade

[subtona]

Originally Posted by Will_NL

Looking at the facts

The terminology water resist has to meet, since 2010, the following ISO norm IF you want to mention the water resistance on the watch itself, next to all the tests and requirements

ISO 22810:2010, Horology – Water-resistant watches , has been drawn up to meet a global demand for clear and unambiguous specifications in this area. It clarifies the terms used, defines the criteria to be met by the product and specifies the marking which may appear on the product.

That means that 50 mtr ofr5 bars signifies that you can swim with your watch:

Water resistance rating Suitability Remarks
Splash/rain resistant is not suitable for showering, bathing, swimming, snorkeling, water related work, fishing, and diving.

Water Resistant 3 atm or 30 m is Suitable for everyday use.

Water Resistant 5 atm or 50 m Suitable for everyday use, showering, bathing, shallow-water swimming, snorkeling, water related work, fishing. Splash/rain resistant. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:NOTRS 1) Not suitable for diving.

Water Resistant 10 atm or 100 m is suitable for recreational surfing, swimming, snorkeling, sailing and water sports. Not suitable for deep water diving.

Water Resistant 20 atm or 200 m is suitable for professional marine activity, serious surface water sports and skin diving. Suitable for skin diving.

Diver’s 100 m Minimum ISO standard (ISO 6425) for scuba diving at depths not suitable for saturation diving. Diver’s 100 m and 150 m watches are generally old(er) watches.

Dynamic movements adds pressure trhough movement in thin fluids, and if you want to skip algebra, the last sentence says that it will not addup to more then half a Bar, of 5 mtr by swimming with your watch:

Dynamic pressure is the pressure induced by movement in dense fluids, in the case of a diver typically the pressure caused by his swimming movements in water. A dynamic pressure of 1 standard atmosphere (100 kPa) (for example the flow of a river) on the surface of a hand (assuming the surface of an “average hand” of 150 cm2) will correspond to a dynamic pressure induced force of 1,500 newtons (340 lbf). In order to calculate the dynamic pressure caused by a fast underwater swimming movement of a diver the following formula can be applied:

P = 1⁄2 ρv 2

Where P is the dynamic pressure, ρ is the density of the fluid and v is the speed. For a fast swimming movement of 10 m/s in typical sea water this works out as:

ρ = 1026 kg/m3

v = 10 m/s

P = 1⁄2 × 1026 kg/m3 × (10 m/s)2 ≈ 51,300 Pa ≈ 0.5063 atm

This calculation shows that fast swimming movements will not create dynamic pressure surges exceeding 0.5 standard atmospheres (51 kPa) (the equivalent of 5 metres of water pressure).

Swimming 10 mtrs (33 feet) per seconde is about 36 km/h (22 miles/h) an that is quite hard to do …


Omega says this:
All current OMEGA watches are water resistant to the depth defined by the model specifications, provided that the components ensuring the water resistance are intact. This means that an OMEGA watch that is water resistant to 30 metres can be worn for swimming at depths of up to 30 metres underwater for extended periods without restriction.

https://www.omegawatches.com/customer-service/faq

IWC says the same thing:

https://www.iwc.com/nl/en/specials/water-resistant.html

So by definition Patek 30m is swimable, and if they state that the watch can actually survive 30m under the surface the that would be a huge upgrade

That is a lot of technical info. Can’t say it all makes sense to me.

My question is, has Patek REDESIGNED OR simply REDEFINED the construction of their WR watch cases?


made a change in the seals or construction of their watch cases or have they just redefined (without any actual changes) the previously existing WR

[Vasco]

Originally Posted by subtona

My question is, has Patek REDESIGNED OR simply REDEFINED the construction of their WR watch cases?


made a change in the seals or construction of their watch cases or have they just redefined (without any actual changes) the previously existing WR

This is the question I asked when it was released 2 weeks ago while people got crazy. If the watches don't change in terms of design (gaskets, etc...), then they didn't change in terms of WR.

If they are undertaking modifications on all their exisiting models, it's another story. To say the least, it would be surprising.

[Greenp]

Somebody should pressure test their Nautilus/Aquanaut.

[fsprow]

Originally Posted by Greenp

Somebody should pressure test their Nautilus/Aquanaut.

I have Nautilus and Aquanauts water tested to 100 meters each year. Never a single fail. The seals are changed at service, usually 7-10 years.

[Russell996]

Originally Posted by subtona

That is a lot of technical info. Can’t say it all makes sense to me.

My question is, has Patek REDESIGNED OR simply REDEFINED the construction of their WR watch cases?


made a change in the seals or construction of their watch cases or have they just redefined (without any actual changes) the previously existing WR

They are now measuring with crown unscrewed, nothing regarding the watch design or manufacture or indeed its ability to be used to depth has changed.

[Greenp]

Maybe be the new Cubitus will be listed as 100M water resistance so they can try to get people interested in them.

[ndirish2001]

Originally Posted by Russell996

They are now measuring with crown unscrewed, nothing regarding the watch design or manufacture or indeed its ability to be used to depth has changed.

That goes directly against what Patek stated about this change. They are not testing them with crown unscrewed. They specifically say that all water resistance ratings are based on crowns pushed in (and screwed in if that’s an option). They’re just now testing them only to 30m and they will stand behind that, meaning that you can use such a watch for swimming and even diving down to 30 meters.

[Speedbird-1]

Originally Posted by Greenp

Maybe be the new Cubitus will be listed as 100M water resistance so they can try to get people interested in them.

This guy, could be interested.

[Russell996]

Originally Posted by ndirish2001

That goes directly against what Patek stated about this change. They are not testing them with crown unscrewed. They specifically say that all water resistance ratings are based on crowns pushed in (and screwed in if that’s an option). They’re just now testing them only to 30m and they will stand behind that, meaning that you can use such a watch for swimming and even diving down to 30 meters.

Can you point me in the direction of this statement regarding the crown please.

[RussW]

Well, as far as I’m concerned this is a downgrade of all Nautilus and Aquanaut models.

I’ve checked the instruction booklet for my 5990 and it clearly states it is water resistant to 120m. In the instruction booklet online at Patek for the 5990 no mention of water resistance is now given. Now we can all guess that if nothing has changed (and who knows if that is actually true?), then the current model is also water resistant to 120m. I’d rather not guess and just go on the facts Patek has given us, which is the Nautilus / Aquanaut are now 30m water resistant, along with their other watches. Effectively a downgrade.

Has anyone seen anything official in writing from Patek, and not simply “my AD confirmed….” that the 30m water resistance is based on the crown unscrewed? Again, from the instructions online at Patek, it is clearly stated that the water resistance of the watch is only assured when the crown is screwed in.

[Gandor]

This is simply a cost saving measure for patek. Stop trying to defend them. It's super tacky for a brand at this level to do this.

[Eyas]

Visited my AD at the weekend and spoke to the manager of the watch department who had been at W&W - they seemed as confused as everyone else as to why Patek have done this. Seems to have a change directed from the very top down and not a lot of logic to it other than being able to say you can swim in most of the watches now.
Personally I think it's bad PR and makes the sports watches look under specced against the competition but Patek will sell every piece anyway so I guess they aren't bothered!

[kaiserphoenix]

Originally Posted by Gandor

This is simply a cost saving measure for patek. Stop trying to defend them. It's super tacky for a brand at this level to do this.

And honestly how much is Patek really gonna save from this it’s just bizarre. Furthermore considering the probably fairly large number of calatravas and calendar watches that are now gonna come in for water damage during warranty period will surely outweigh any minimal cost savings…Because mark my words the perpetual calendar will not withstand swimming.

[Crazywis]

Originally Posted by kaiserphoenix

And honestly how much is Patek really gonna save from this it’s just bizarre. Furthermore considering the probably fairly large number of calatravas and calendar watches that are now gonna come in for water damage during warranty period will surely outweigh any minimal cost savings…Because mark my words the perpetual calendar will not withstand swimming.

Some time back (well before W&W) I was advised by someone at HSNY that it's perfectly fine to wash and rinse my 5270 PCC under a running tap after popping off the QR straps in order to deep clean. I don't recall exactly how the conversation went before getting to this point but needless to say, I haven't had the guts to actually try that suggestion out

[DavidSB]

In June, 2023 I brought my 5164a into HSWA for a new strap and while waiting I asked and they did a pressure test and all was good. I assume they tested it to its then stated 120m WR.

[scurfa]

Originally Posted by kaiserphoenix

And honestly how much is Patek really gonna save from this it’s just bizarre. Furthermore considering the probably fairly large number of calatravas and calendar watches that are now gonna come in for water damage during warranty period will surely outweigh any minimal cost savings…Because mark my words the perpetual calendar will not withstand swimming.

I think the saving will be made in time, I’m guessing when a Patek watchmaker completes a watch it will be sent to another department for water resistance testing, I can imagine now it’s put into a bench tester that has its own built in compressor and is safe to use and the standard version tests to the 30m now stated by Patek, I have my own diving and sports watch company and have the 100m version myself.

I’m sure the Nautilus and Aquanaut haven’t changed in design but are now only tested to 30m because it’s quick and easy for the watchmaker to do so.

[vliberman]

Originally Posted by scurfa

I think the saving will be made in time, I’m guessing when a Patek watchmaker completes a watch it will be sent to another department for water resistance testing, I can imagine now it’s put into a bench tester that has its own built in compressor and is safe to use and the standard version tests to the 30m now stated by Patek, I have my own diving and sports watch company and have the 100m version myself.

I’m sure the Nautilus and Aquanaut haven’t changed in design but are now only tested to 30m because it’s quick and easy for the watchmaker to do so.

I agree. There is a perception that PP is some artisanal unicorn where in reality most of its models are mass produced. Given that majority of production are Nautilus and Aquanauts, standardized production allows for a greater scale.

[bp1000]

Originally Posted by Crazywis

Some time back (well before W&W) I was advised by someone at HSNY that it's perfectly fine to wash and rinse my 5270 PCC under a running tap after popping off the QR straps in order to deep clean. I don't recall exactly how the conversation went before getting to this point but needless to say, I haven't had the guts to actually try that suggestion out

If it reassures you, I have been cleaning my 5270 this way for ages. With any watch, crown and pushers face down.

[jcdevoe26]

Originally Posted by Russell996

First of all it not quietly done since it’s a press release and secondly OP you seem to misunderstood the announcement.

Nothing is being downgraded regarding the watches. Patek have switched to a 30m number for all water resistant watches due to the way they are now tested. They are now saying any watch within its service parameters is swimable if it is rated 30m. I have asked and I can swim in my 5370. They have switched to testing and certifying sports pieces with crowns unscrewed and hence the change - the rationale being that they can’t ensure a user tightens the crown but they can guarantee it is swimmable even with the crown unscrewed. If you screw in the crown then the rating goes up considerably but they have stopped quoting that figure since they can’t control the user. New 5 year warranty also announced and I’m assured it’s backed dated to 1st May 2023 despite what the press release says, new paper work will follow to all owners who have purchased after 1st May 2023.

Its so nice to see someone that took the time to read and understand what PP has ACTUALLY done. Omega did something similar when they updated there website to indicate that the Speedmaster rated at 50M can be worn for swimming.

[vliberman]

Originally Posted by jcdevoe26

Its so nice to see someone that took the time to read and understand what PP has ACTUALLY done. Omega did something similar when they updated there website to indicate that the Speedmaster rated at 50M can be worn for swimming.

Are u guys both for real?? Patek has literarily downgraded water rating from 120m to 30m! everything else is innuendo and excuse to somehow justify it. As far as consumer is concerned u could buy 120m water tested watch and now u can only buy 30m one, full stop!

[fsprow]

Originally Posted by jcdevoe26

Its so nice to see someone that took the time to read and understand what PP has ACTUALLY done. Omega did something similar when they updated there website to indicate that the Speedmaster rated at 50M can be worn for swimming.

Exactly. Much ado about nothing.

[RussW]

Originally Posted by jcdevoe26

Its so nice to see someone that took the time to read and understand what PP has ACTUALLY done. Omega did something similar when they updated there website to indicate that the Speedmaster rated at 50M can be worn for swimming.

Show me anything from Patek that says anything other than all WR watches are now WR to 30m. AFAIK there are no exceptions where there is a higher WR stated.

[kaiserphoenix]

Originally Posted by Crazywis

Some time back (well before W&W) I was advised by someone at HSNY that it's perfectly fine to wash and rinse my 5270 PCC under a running tap after popping off the QR straps in order to deep clean. I don't recall exactly how the conversation went before getting to this point but needless to say, I haven't had the guts to actually try that suggestion out

Thats honestly surprising and Im not sure if I should feel impressed or scared! Like under running water!?? But your source is a very official source so I cant imagine them lying to you either...Its very different to what I've been told about dress watches. Perhaps I have been under a mistaken illusion that 3ATM for the dress watches means that they can actually withstand running water and swimming. I always though rain splashes or equivalent was the maximum it could withstand.

[turfmanjon]

I’d always washed my 5960 under running water and scrub with soap and a brush. Same 30m water resistance. Never an issue.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CM333]

New line will be Diver models , hence the reduction of WR
across all models and Stern saying new line will compete with Nautilus and Aquanaut

[Crown & Shield]

Originally Posted by vliberman

Are u guys both for real?? Patek has literarily downgraded water rating from 120m to 30m! everything else is innuendo and excuse to somehow justify it. As far as consumer is concerned u could buy 120m water tested watch and now u can only buy 30m one, full stop!

[Will_NL]

Worth readng:

https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/pa...ter-resistance

And

https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/wh...can-trust-them

In summary therefore we can see that except for specific cases: (a) 100 meters is more than enough; (b) your watch may be a lot tougher than just the numbers tell you; and (c) you can't swim fast enough to defeat your dive watch depth rating, not by a long shot. In the last case I assume that hitting the water fast enough would of course at a certain point cause enough of an increase in pressure to be an issue (one wonders about jet skis) but at that point, you probably have other problems.