Pastorale II by Qin Gan

[Ichiran]

https://monochrome-watches.com/intro...l-specs-price/

"Residing in Chongqing, China, Qin Gan’s journey into watchmaking is quite remarkable. As the son of a well-respected watchmaker in his region, Qin Gan literally grew up with watches. From a young age, he would dismantle, fix and reassemble watches using his father’s tools. This all led to being appointed head watchmaker at Poly Hong Kong auction house, becoming a public figure in the Chinese watchmaking industry, and subsequently launching his eponymous watchmaking company."

"The Pastorale II that’s being released now is an evolution of the original Pastorale. This was a six-piece limited run of watches with classical proportions and a stainless steel case. The follow-up Pastorale II serves up more of the aesthetic presented by the previous watch, with yet more fitness and attention to detail. The case is delightfully compact at 38.5mm across and 9.5mm in height and comes in either 18k white or rose gold."

"Moving to the dial, there are two options to choose from, both dictated by the case material. The white gold case is paired with a champagne-coloured champlevé enamel dial, while the rose gold case is fitted with a silver dial produced with the same technique. The style is simple, yet superbly refined. The engraved Roman numerals and markings are filled with black vitreous enamel."

"The architecture of the Calibre 1810 is still based on the manually wound Longines 30L, although it’s produced and finished in-house for the most part. For instance, the mainplate and geartrain are entirely handmade, and the Côtes de Genève, chamfering, perlage and other finishing techniques are done by hand as well. It also features gold chatons, a new style click spring and a balance wheel with adjustable weight screws."

"Qin Gan is able to produce about 15 pieces per year, at a price of CNY 328,000, or USD 46,000, excluding taxes."

[Ichiran]

The 2 Chinese characters on the dial are "Qin Gan". The movement is based on Longines 30L. The hand-finishing behind is well done with 8 interior angles. Nice size to wear.

[WatchEater666]

Pricing is very aggressive. The main input for a high end watch is labor, and this is a crazy amount of buying power in Chongqing. I don't really get why it's priced the way it is given the brand is in a LCOL area.

Good on him if he can charge that, but $46k for a time only dress watch made in China is bold.

[enjoythemusic]

It's all happening....

Human talent is global. Though admit was hoping for pricing below $25k, since Torsti Laine is $12k.

[charger_vital]

This jumps the shark.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MP777]

Hard pass. The average white collar annual salary in China is $48k, factory workers make significantly less. Asking $46k is just unrealistic compared to the wages being paid in the country.

At $46k, I can pay a watchmaker in China to commission a piece with way better finishing using the same Longines movement.

[Ichiran]

The iphone are made in China and India but that doesn't mean Apple is going to sell us an iphone at $100 each due to the payroll and low cost there.

Similarly at Lange, they are operating at a lower cost region (compared to Geneva) but you are not getting the Lange 1 at $5k.

[WatchEater666]

Originally Posted by MP777

Hard pass. The average white collar annual salary in China is $48k, factory workers make significantly less. Asking $46k is just unrealistic compared to the wages being paid in the country.

At $46k, I can pay a watchmaker in China to commission a piece with way better finishing using the same Longines movement.

Where are you getting that number from? I have a ton of white collar employees on payroll in China and I do not pay them anywhere close to $48k USD. Googling around says the same thing too..it's much much much lower lol

[mchen42]

Actually, 46k is not bold and it has been sold out until 2027. I have seen this watch 2 months ago when I went back Shanghai. I was astonished by the quality of this dial also the movement, same level with some so-called Swiss brand. I wish I could be on the list for this fantastic piece.

When I was in Geneva last week and attended the Palexpo, I did witness the total supply chain for watch industry, which was quite amazing. Some famous brands (I don't want to say) relies on this supply chain and what they really did is only designing by CAD and little labor for assembling watches. That is why I am more impressed by Qin, he and his team almost did everything they could do in house. Respect to him. It took him two years to improve this dial. Picture can not tell and we have to see this watch in person.

Originally Posted by WatchEater666

Pricing is very aggressive. The main input for a high end watch is labor, and this is a crazy amount of buying power in Chongqing. I don't really get why it's priced the way it is given the brand is in a LCOL area.

Good on him if he can charge that, but $46k for a time only dress watch made in China is bold.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by mchen42

That is why I am more impressed by Qin, he and his team almost did everything they could do in house. Respect to him. It took him two years to improve this dial. Picture can not tell and we have to see this watch in person.

That's great and do very much look forward to Asian companies offering a lot of true handcrafted, hand-polished timepeices that rival anything else available within the marketplace. Human talent is global.

It was just a matter of time for the Dragon to wake up....

[charger_vital]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

The iphone are made in China and India but that doesn't mean Apple is going to sell us an iphone at $100 each due to the payroll and low cost there.

Similarly at Lange, they are operating at a lower cost region (compared to Geneva) but you are not getting the Lange 1 at $5k.

For an iPhone you’re paying for r&d, not labor.

And the labor cost in Germany maybe a little less… but not that much less.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by charger_vital

For an iPhone you’re paying for r&d, not labor.

And the labor cost in Germany maybe a little less… but not that much less.

Both not true.

Apple's R&D is only 11% of total operating expenses. That's a small percentage.

Labour cost of watchmaker in Glashutte is €50k per annum vs CHF 80k in Geneva. That's a significant difference and I would expect my Lange to be 40% cheaper than an equivalent complicated Patek if we go with your logic. However, we all know that's not the case.

[dchang81]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

Both not true.

Apple's R&D is only 11% of total operating expenses. That's a small percentage.

Labour cost of watchmaker in Glashutte is €50k per annum vs CHF 80k in Geneva. That's a significant difference and I would expect my Lange to be 40% cheaper than an equivalent complicated Patek if we go with your logic. However, we all know that's not the case.

So what you're saying here is the margins for the pastorale are nuts then?

[WatchEater666]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

Both not true.

Apple's R&D is only 11% of total operating expenses. That's a small percentage.

Labour cost of watchmaker in Glashutte is €50k per annum vs CHF 80k in Geneva. That's a significant difference and I would expect my Lange to be 40% cheaper than an equivalent complicated Patek if we go with your logic. However, we all know that's not the case.

Lol dude. Apple makes a TON of money via software type product. IE App Store fees to apps.

Really bad comp

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by dchang81

So what you're saying here is the margins for the pastorale are nuts then?

It might well be high but if he have an order book until 2027 (as of today), that's his own merit. This is an artisanal watch and he only makes 15 per year. He prices them and customers decide if it is fair vis-a-vis other artisanal watches.

When I buy an artisanal watch, I don't think about manufacturer's cost but I look at prices of similar artisanal watches, as a reference only.

[kunlun]

I'm getting a few bespoke pieces that I'm really looking forward to.

However, the discussion here seems to be pushing to a key point: Finely finishing a vintage movement in the Swiss-French style, counting the internal angles and looking at the anglage is...

Not That Special.

Maybe we shouldn't be paying huge amounts for that.

Lots of people are doing that now.

Just putting that out there as a challenging idea. I'm not saying it's an opinion handed down from a mountain, just one to play with.

Personally, I like fine finishing, but I don't think of it as the be-all, end-all. It can be a factor (not always, there are other ways hand-finishing can be done and other ways to show craftsmanship!), but it's not the only thing to look for.

PS Best wishes to Qin Gan, it sounds like he has connections to collectors in China. I don't like the larger 12 on the dial. Maybe dial work will be a place to move forward for him.

[ChetBaker]

Being able to sell 15 pieces a year does not mean the price is fair. It’s not a relevant sample. It just means you have found 15 people crazy enough to pay what you want. Try finding buyers of these watches at that price at scale. This is a watch made in a very low cost country and that advantage should be passed on to the customer. Not sure that’s happening here.

[charger_vital]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

Both not true.

Apple's R&D is only 11% of total operating expenses. That's a small percentage.

Labour cost of watchmaker in Glashutte is €50k per annum vs CHF 80k in Geneva. That's a significant difference and I would expect my Lange to be 40% cheaper than an equivalent complicated Patek if we go with your logic. However, we all know that's not the case.

Haha. Ok. In the end, you’re right: if this new Chinese watchmaker can convince people to pay a Patek premium then god bless.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[charger_vital]

Originally Posted by kunlun

I'm getting a few bespoke pieces that I'm really looking forward to.

However, the discussion here seems to be pushing to a key point: Finely finishing a vintage movement in the Swiss-French style, counting the internal angles and looking at the anglage is...

Not That Special.

Maybe we shouldn't be paying huge amounts for that.

Lots of people are doing that now.

Just putting that out there as a challenging idea. I'm not saying it's an opinion handed down from a mountain, just one to play with.

Personally, I like fine finishing, but I don't think of it as the be-all, end-all. It can be a factor (not always, there are other ways hand-finishing can be done and other ways to show craftsmanship!), but it's not the only thing to look for.

PS Best wishes to Qin Gan, it sounds like he has connections to collectors in China. I don't like the larger 12 on the dial. Maybe dial work will be a place to move forward for him.

100%


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[WatchEater666]

Originally Posted by kunlun

I'm getting a few bespoke pieces that I'm really looking forward to.

However, the discussion here seems to be pushing to a key point: Finely finishing a vintage movement in the Swiss-French style, counting the internal angles and looking at the anglage is...

Not That Special.

Maybe we shouldn't be paying huge amounts for that.

Lots of people are doing that now.

Just putting that out there as a challenging idea. I'm not saying it's an opinion handed down from a mountain, just one to play with.

Personally, I like fine finishing, but I don't think of it as the be-all, end-all. It can be a factor (not always, there are other ways hand-finishing can be done and other ways to show craftsmanship!), but it's not the only thing to look for.

PS Best wishes to Qin Gan, it sounds like he has connections to collectors in China. I don't like the larger 12 on the dial. Maybe dial work will be a place to move forward for him.

Agreed. Stuff like this, and the release from Fleming are both so bland.

[Ichiran]

I enjoy and appreciate good hand-finishing and below are some pics of his beautifully finished movement.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by charger_vital

... Chinese watchmaker can convince people to pay a Patek premium then god bless.

We all know that modern Patek Philippe is now just another commercial manufacturer. Obviously, PP watches are priced lower for a good reason. Take a look at the photos above, PP does not bother with very high-end handcraftsmanship work on their typical mass-produced watches. Show me a production Patek Philippe Aquanaut, Nautilus, Calatrava, WorldTime, etc that rivals the above pics for hand craftmanship, please.

While we admire and VERY MUCH appreciate all that Switzerland and Germany continue to contribute to horology, other countries are also equally as valid in 2024. There was a time, not too long ago, when 'merican-made pocket watches were amongst the very best and priced well compared to their European counterparts.

The Dragon has awoken!

[charger_vital]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

We all know that modern Patek Philippe is now just another commercial manufacturer. Obviously, PP watches are priced lower for a good reason. Take a look at the photos above, PP does not bother with very high-end handcraftsmanship work on their typical mass-produced watches. Show me a production Patek Philippe Aquanaut, Nautilus, Calatrava, WorldTime, etc that rivals the above pics for hand craftmanship, please.

While we admire and VERY MUCH appreciate all that Switzerland and Germany continue to contribute to horology, other countries are also equally as valid in 2024. There was a time, not too long ago, when 'merican-made pocket watches were amongst the very best and priced well compared to their European counterparts.

The Dragon has awoken!

My comment isn’t about origin. I don’t care about that.

But to your point about craftsmanship, finishing is only one aspect of it. And not the most important one in my opinion. The finishing looks nice on this watch but the design of watch itself is lazy and uninspired. He would have been better off taking a Longines watch, like the diver, and finishing that to the 9s. Rather than doing what he did which was finish the Longines movement and putting it into his own basic case and average dial layout. Then at least he would have a cool watch with his amazing finishing inside of it.

But even that wouldn’t be worth $50k.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ichiran]

My end-game grail watch looks like this and the MSRP is CHF 150,000. Granted it has in-house movement and the manufacture is based in posh and high-income Geneva with delicious chocolates. To you it's boring/bland/uninspired/expensive/absurd but for collectors who love sublime interior angles, this is the one.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by charger_vital

The finishing looks nice on this watch but the design of watch itself is lazy and uninspired.

Agreed-ish, tho Design is a preference of sorts. Gronefeld is another design style for their movement, and there's Czapek, and MB&F... Imho each has their 'language', just as a classic Breguet movement wants nothing to do with all that glitz and glam and bling-bling. Some finishing work takes more time, and talent, than others.

[subtona]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

My end-game grail watch looks like this and the MSRP is CHF 150,000. Granted it has in-house movement and the manufacture is based in posh and high-income Geneva with delicious chocolates. To you it's boring/bland/uninspired/expensive/absurd but for collectors who love sublime interior angles, this is the one.

This we can agree on.

[dmottley]

The movement is beautiful, but I don't think that the dial matches the quality of the movement. I prefer for the one below for similar cost.

https://celadonhh.com/collections/ce...-seven-wonders

[WatchEater666]

For the same money, after AD discounts, you can get a Lang and Heyne which is far more horologically interesting IMO. Their finishing is more german in style obviously, but it is done to a very high standard and the movement is far more interesting.

[enjoythemusic]

Lovely Lang and Heyne...

_n6.jpg