The problem isn’t with Rolex, it is with their ADs.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by JonnyOld Boy

The Problem is the "Emperor's New Cloths Syndrome" ....

Well said

Was recently chatting on the phone with another multi-decade longtime enthusiast of horology and we agreed it seems to be this new 'entitled' sentiment, which Turned To 11 during the global Everything Bubble. Sure decades ago we all know getting a SS Daytona or certain ultra-high-end 'application' pieces from other brands could take time, if at all. That was normal and expected.

Nowadays it seems like the newbies want it all, and they want it now. And if you don't understand they did something to earn it, or they need it for their social influencer status, don't you know who they are....

We live in interesting times. Be kind to these new Entitled Karen types, they are the future of... something. Just wish more of them started their own companies instead of whining about what they outright refuse to pay for at market pricing.

n.jpg

[JonnyOld Boy]

Originally Posted by thenewrick

I disagree with a lot of this. Rolex is quite exclusive and more premium than almost all other watches out there. .

Really ? If they make a million watches a year, I would hardly call that exclusive !? And premium amongst their price-peers doesn't hold up to scrutiny I am afraid. They are about decent value for what they are but no more IMO.

A great example for me was in 2020 when a South coast AD called me because I had enquired about Breiltings saying he had an OP silver dial just arrive and would I like to trying it on with a view to buy ..
So I drove down there that weekend and tried it on , along with an Omega AT and another couple of watches including a Breitling Premier.
I bought none of them.
He did have a DJ in a colour way I didn't fancy but I tried that on and decided to wait for a DJ sometime rather than buy the AT,OP etc etc ...

All the watches I tried on that day were very nice , but the OP was no more "special" that any other and the deal breaker for me was the bracelet taper which I found rather feminine.

Never did get round to getting the DJ, but that's a watch certainly on my radar for a future purchase. If stock rolls back into stores then I will almost certainly buy one. But not because its "premium" amongst its peers, its just a hell of nice watch.

[77T]

I don't agree that Rolex has a problem with ADs.

Product is in high demand.
Price is too low.
Place is flexible (but could improve).
Promotion is superb.

The fix for Price is to shift to a Lobster model: MP

That ends the secondary market arb without draconian steps.

Happy?
But your 116500 will still cost you $34K in hot markets.


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[KatGirl]

There is nothing any of us who want to buy a brand new Rolex can do to change the situation. There does seem to be some improvement lately, but it’s slow. Personally, I don’t mind waiting for what I want. The delayed gratification makes the experience that much more special. I’m expecting a call in the near future. I look forward to more wine and chocolates when I pick it up. (poor Brian )

Kat


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[BillA]

Originally Posted by padi56

Have to agree if all prospective buyers stopped all tis so called AD building relationship stuff, and refused to play these so called AD games then perhaps we could get back to normally.

Padi, partially disagree, the problem is not at the AD, the problem is the grey market. If people would stop lining the pockets of the grey dealers who sell over MSRP, then we could get normalcy. I for one will not pay over msrp for a watch, that is my decision, people who do have the right to spend their money as they wish.

[RyanJ]

There is nothing wrong and this is nothing new. People loved the watch market when posting which secondary dealer or AD offered the biggest discounts.

It is not just "entitled newbies". People of all stages of watch collecting, many on this forum, happily pay above MSRP to get what they want right now. I don't think that is entitlement. That is simply capitalism.

People love blaming flippers but they are only able to flip for profit because people pay over MSRP. If magically everyone stopped paying over MSRP, prices would drop like a rock on the secondary market. If you want to "blame" someone, blame anyone that pays over MSRP, not flippers, not Rolex, not the ADs, and not the secondary market. A watch is only worth what people are willing to pay.

Rolex AND ADs are doing what they can to elevate the brand so that their watches never go back to sitting in display cases having to be sold at a discount. The secondary market is working to make as much profit as possible. The secondary market is a huge player in how popular Rolex watches (and other brands) have become.

Rolex could severely hamper the secondary market if it wanted to but it will not. It knows it needs it as it is an integral part of market.

[BraveBold]

I don’t see the problem. It is a discretionary purchase. Some are willing to pay market price and some manipulation of supply occurs through flippers.

But at the end of the day, it tends to equalize (to market price).

People choose different paths to ownership. There are alternatives out there - slightly below and slightly above. Plenty of alternatives = choice.

[ArtNouveau]

Originally Posted by thenewrick

I have no problems with AD's or Rolex. If the AD likes you, you get watches. If they don't, you don't. I've gotten what I've asked for with no spend history and a modest wait. My AD has been nothing but courteous and open with info.

This is my observation too. Probably half of the members here quietly go about asking for and receiving the Rolex they want, the other half continually rehash how unfairly they’re treated and keep spreading the unsubstantiated claims of dealer shenanigans.
I enjoy wearing the Rolex I own but they’re just watches. I have asked for a Celebration dial OP41 but if my AD doesn’t come through the sun will still rise. There is no watch I will pay a premium for, if the AD says no I don’t need it.

[Krash]

Originally Posted by Dave O

I detest flippers as much as you do. But in reality, even though you think it's a large number, in the overall scheme of things the percentage of watches that goes to flippers vs. the average customer is a tiny number. Rolex sells over 1.2m watches a year. If even 10k watches were flipped, this is less than 1% of total amount of watches produced. Are there some bad apples - yes. But in the end the number is very small.

Yeah, I agree. The breadth of the grey market always seems exaggerated on TRF to me. People see watches available on the internet that they can’t get at an AD, and then they want to blow up Rolex’s distribution model because of it.


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[Guppydriver]

Originally Posted by KatGirl

Nothing wrong with my AD. I’ve gotten the watches I want with little trouble, and no real spend history worth mentioning. As in the UK, the ADs in the US own their inventory. They can sell to whomever they want. I do know that Rolex does not like, nor do they encourage ADs to require spend histories in order to secure an allocation. I am treated very well at my AD, so no complaints from me.

Kat


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Respectfully though Kat (and I think you know I mean that)-

I assume you are being allocated references in (for the most part) less desirable sizes (such as your amazing Wimbledon). Something tells me you would have less success and perhaps a slightly more malleable opinion if the watch you were waiting for was a 126710, 126503 or 226570 for your husband.


All that said..

Nice post OP, you started a good conversation with well thought out and articulate ideas.

My only beef with Rolex is I really feel they could end "bulk bundled sales" to known secondary dealers overnight if they wanted. I've heard stories about the AD on Cancun selling heaps of references to the greys. Rolex is reticent because the discount AD's give to the grays is under the table, whereas a "known" discount to a point of sale customer has the potential to quell the hype.

[0nly5iv3Digits]

Actually agree with the sentiment that the problem is with Rolex clientele.

[Robf52]

Originally Posted by KatGirl

Nothing wrong with my AD. I’ve gotten the watches I want with little trouble, and no real spend history worth mentioning. As in the UK, the ADs in the US own their inventory. They can sell to whomever they want. I do know that Rolex does not like, nor do they encourage ADs to require spend histories in order to secure an allocation. I am treated very well at my AD, so no complaints from me.

My AD experience also. No complaints. I've built spend history on Rolex only pieces and feel like I've developed a great business relationship with my AD. I've been fortunate to get everything I've wanted (still want more), and feel like I've always been treated respectfully and honestly. I may be an outlier, but, again, no complaints.

[bds79]

I have to agree with the OP. My AD experience was this:

I very much wanted a black dial Explorer II. I went to my AD and talked to a sales associate about it and my general interest in watches -- talked about some other brands I had, why I liked the Exp. II, etc. I told him I completely understood that demand is high and that I'm patient and will wait until a black dial Explorer II becomes available because that's the watch for me. I checked back every few months. Let him know (the same person every time) I was still interested in that piece, chatted a bit (didn't keep him from other customers) and looked around the store a bit. I feel I was respectful of his time while maintaining my interest in this piece.

Each time, I was directed toward Tudors. I would look, try a few on, said they're nice (and genuinely liked them), but reiterated that I really had my heart set on a black dial Exp. II.

This went on for 3 years. Every time I was told how scarce they are -- again, I get it -- but that he'd get one for me. And on several occasions they had a display only piece. So they were getting some in and moving them through the store.

Still no black dial Exp. II for me. No call.

And now I've just given up. I haven't gone back. I'm interested in the new Tudor BB Burgundy but refuse to give him my business.

In 3 years, they absolutely did get some black dial Explorer IIs in stock. I'm certain of it. And I'm not even offended if they prioritized preferred clients sometimes. After all, they're trying to maximize profit. But I feel like my turn should have come around in 3 years. It's not like I asked for a Daytona, Pepsi, etc.

What's clear from my experience is that you can do all the "right things" with an AD yet some simply aren't going to sell you a Rolex unless you spend with them first. I think that's unfortunate for customers who really just want a certain Rolex but don't want to, or have the means to, but a bunch of watches/jewelry they don't want to be able to get the watch they have their heart set on. The whole experience is discouraging and off putting.

[espanol]

Originally Posted by njlam

We all know once you own one Rolex, you will want to own more. Why then, are allocations made to maximize non-Rolex profits of the ADs, rather than maximize the number of Rolex owners?

I read through many of the responses, and can see you're getting thrashed for this post. But I think your comment here is profound.

Rolex is actively looking to improve supply chain, hence boutiques. In order to prolong this success, they'll need to better control supply chain, IMO.

I actually agree with you; I think the AD experience will negatively impact the brand long term. Exclusivity will only work for as long as it'll work. A mere 7 years ago one could've bought any Rolex they wanted from an AD. Heck, even a 5711 Nautilus (which I was offered as recent as 2017 with 5% off). We are in uncharted territory. Will the next generation of accumulators actually enjoy this treatment? Who knows.

Also, the whole premise of wanting more Rolex watches is also rather new. You've been a long-time patron/supporter of TRF; remember all of the single-Rolex owners from ~10 years ago? Accumulation is new, where in the past having one single Rolex was the norm.

Long winded way of saying I also think the brand is being negatively impacted by the sales process, just have to give it time.

[Wingman244]

Originally Posted by bds79

I have to agree with the OP. My AD experience was this:

I very much wanted a black dial Explorer II. I went to my AD and talked to a sales associate about it and my general interest in watches -- talked about some other brands I had, why I liked the Exp. II, etc. I told him I completely understood that demand is high and that I'm patient and will wait until a black dial Explorer II becomes available because that's the watch for me. I checked back every few months. Let him know (the same person every time) I was still interested in that piece, chatted a bit (didn't keep him from other customers) and looked around the store a bit. I feel I was respectful of his time while maintaining my interest in this piece.

Each time, I was directed toward Tudors. I would look, try a few on, said they're nice (and genuinely liked them), but reiterated that I really had my heart set on a black dial Exp. II.

This went on for 3 years. Every time I was told how scarce they are -- again, I get it -- but that he'd get one for me. And on several occasions they had a display only piece. So they were getting some in and moving them through the store.

Still no black dial Exp. II for me. No call.

And now I've just given up. I haven't gone back. I'm interested in the new Tudor BB Burgundy but refuse to give him my business.

In 3 years, they absolutely did get some black dial Explorer IIs in stock. I'm certain of it. And I'm not even offended if they prioritized preferred clients sometimes. After all, they're trying to maximize profit. But I feel like my turn should have come around in 3 years. It's not like I asked for a Daytona, Pepsi, etc.

What's clear from my experience is that you can do all the "right things" with an AD yet some simply aren't going to sell you a Rolex unless you spend with them first. I think that's unfortunate for customers who really just want a certain Rolex but don't want to, or have the means to, but a bunch of watches/jewelry they don't want to be able to get the watch they have their heart set on. The whole experience is discouraging and off putting.

Do you value your time? How much is your time worth? How much time did you waste in the shop begging the dealer to sell you a watch? How much enjoyment would you have had if you had that watch for the past 3 years? Current grey market prices for the Explorer II are not that high. I just bought a 116500LN Daytona at grey market prices (+60% over MSRP) because I am not going to wait multiple years. I just had a cancer scare and realized waiting for something you can afford is not good. I don't mean this as a rant to be mean but I think we do not adequately value our own time sometimes. We need to be careful not to wrap up waiting as the virtue and for good reasons with waiting for any reason, even if it does not make sense. Anyway I would really encourage you to just go out and get the watch.

[Wingman244]

She is a beauty and worth not waiting.

[BillA]

Originally Posted by bds79

I have to agree with the OP. My AD experience was this:

I very much wanted a black dial Explorer II. I went to my AD and talked to a sales associate about it and my general interest in watches -- talked about some other brands I had, why I liked the Exp. II, etc. I told him I completely understood that demand is high and that I'm patient and will wait until a black dial Explorer II becomes available because that's the watch for me. I checked back every few months. Let him know (the same person every time) I was still interested in that piece, chatted a bit (didn't keep him from other customers) and looked around the store a bit. I feel I was respectful of his time while maintaining my interest in this piece.

Each time, I was directed toward Tudors. I would look, try a few on, said they're nice (and genuinely liked them), but reiterated that I really had my heart set on a black dial Exp. II.

This went on for 3 years. Every time I was told how scarce they are -- again, I get it -- but that he'd get one for me. And on several occasions they had a display only piece. So they were getting some in and moving them through the store.

Still no black dial Exp. II for me. No call.

And now I've just given up. I haven't gone back. I'm interested in the new Tudor BB Burgundy but refuse to give him my business.

In 3 years, they absolutely did get some black dial Explorer IIs in stock. I'm certain of it. And I'm not even offended if they prioritized preferred clients sometimes. After all, they're trying to maximize profit. But I feel like my turn should have come around in 3 years. It's not like I asked for a Daytona, Pepsi, etc.

What's clear from my experience is that you can do all the "right things" with an AD yet some simply aren't going to sell you a Rolex unless you spend with them first. I think that's unfortunate for customers who really just want a certain Rolex but don't want to, or have the means to, but a bunch of watches/jewelry they don't want to be able to get the watch they have their heart set on. The whole experience is discouraging and off putting.

While you put in the time and effort, there is a good chance you were wasting your time with the SA. I recently landed a Sub LV at my AD. I used to come in and talk to a very nice SA, but she told me that the owner controls the allocation of the Rolex watches. So I got friendly with the owner who happened to be a really nice guy. One day I walked in, spoke to the owner and his brother and walked out with the Sub LV I wanted. I can’t be 100% sure this will apply in your case but maybe it does. Good luck.

[codecow]

Originally Posted by ArtNouveau

This is my observation too. Probably half of the members here quietly go about asking for and receiving the Rolex they want, the other half continually rehash how unfairly they’re treated and keep spreading the unsubstantiated claims of dealer shenanigans.
I enjoy wearing the Rolex I own but they’re just watches. I have asked for a Celebration dial OP41 but if my AD doesn’t come through the sun will still rise. There is no watch I will pay a premium for, if the AD says no I don’t need it.

Are you sure? The OP 41 Celebration is pretty awesome.

Seriously though, agree 100%. If you can’t get something then don’t.

[kieselguhr]

Originally Posted by espanol

Also, the whole premise of wanting more Rolex watches is also rather new. You've been a long-time patron/supporter of TRF; remember all of the single-Rolex owners from ~10 years ago? Accumulation is new, where in the past having one single Rolex was the norm.

Forum members on TRF and multiple other platforms had collections of watches 10 years ago. In fact watch collections have been going on even before TRF was around. This is definitely not a new thing.

Of course there are also single watch owners. They still exist today and most don’t bother participating on watch related social media

[codecow]

BTW as to the rarity of Rolex in the plane in 1st class now, couple in front of me the lady has an older rose gold Daytona and the guy has a 16710 Pepsi bezel, I have my DD 40 Onyx. Wife brought her Santos otherwise we’d have two straight rows on this side full of them. Not that rare.

More rare the guy in the row across from me has an aftermarket iced out Santos.

[N0trub]

I have had a very pleasant experience with my local AD but still no watch and if they don’t come through how could I spend more monies with them in the future. This for me is not ideal I need jewelry for my wife and daughter also I want more watches. Really seems a horrible business model all around yet here i am on an Internet forum lol. I was told 6 weeks to 6 years and that I had an appropriate spend history for said watch. Ok I waited 13 months for my exp II to get the spa treatment in Geneva i can do it. Here we are 14 months after my request and “we hope to sell you this watch very soon”. I have been in five times since request and taken another rolex to them for a service. It’s disheartening my time is valuable. The AD near my wife’s parents in Florida told me simply 12-14 months. This all is so crazy as i am asking to spend over 12k and more in the future….i don't think i will ever feel like my AD is looking out for me the way some on here ruminate about. The problem is open market value being more than retail. Fun fact Chevy makes less than 840,000 trucks a year so called scarcity is not real.

[bluestreak]

Originally Posted by bds79

I have to agree with the OP. My AD experience was this:

I very much wanted a black dial Explorer II. I went to my AD and talked to a sales associate about it and my general interest in watches -- talked about some other brands I had, why I liked the Exp. II, etc. I told him I completely understood that demand is high and that I'm patient and will wait until a black dial Explorer II becomes available because that's the watch for me. I checked back every few months. Let him know (the same person every time) I was still interested in that piece, chatted a bit (didn't keep him from other customers) and looked around the store a bit. I feel I was respectful of his time while maintaining my interest in this piece.

Each time, I was directed toward Tudors. I would look, try a few on, said they're nice (and genuinely liked them), but reiterated that I really had my heart set on a black dial Exp. II.

This went on for 3 years. Every time I was told how scarce they are -- again, I get it -- but that he'd get one for me. And on several occasions they had a display only piece. So they were getting some in and moving them through the store.

Still no black dial Exp. II for me. No call.

And now I've just given up. I haven't gone back. I'm interested in the new Tudor BB Burgundy but refuse to give him my business.

In 3 years, they absolutely did get some black dial Explorer IIs in stock. I'm certain of it. And I'm not even offended if they prioritized preferred clients sometimes. After all, they're trying to maximize profit. But I feel like my turn should have come around in 3 years. It's not like I asked for a Daytona, Pepsi, etc.

What's clear from my experience is that you can do all the "right things" with an AD yet some simply aren't going to sell you a Rolex unless you spend with them first. I think that's unfortunate for customers who really just want a certain Rolex but don't want to, or have the means to, but a bunch of watches/jewelry they don't want to be able to get the watch they have their heart set on. The whole experience is discouraging and off putting.

There are clearly more people who want to buy the watches than there are watches to go around. How should they allocate the watches? How do you know the watches that came in went to someone who had been waiting longer than you? Or had been a customer longer?

The issue with the current market is that somebody simply isn’t getting a watch. It’s unclear why so many think that person should be somebody else and not them.

[Krash]

Originally Posted by bluestreak

There are clearly more people who want to buy the watches than there are watches to go around. How should they allocate the watches? How do you know the watches that came in went to someone who had been waiting longer than you? Or had been a customer longer?

The issue with the current market is that somebody simply isn’t getting a watch. It’s unclear why so many think that person should be somebody else and not them.

100% agree.


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[Harry-57]

When I picked up my TT CHNR there were a couple nearby buying a pair of DJs, someone was having their BLNR bagged up, and later that afternoon, according to the SA someone was coming in to pick up their Sky Dweller. As I walked out, stopping to chat with a couple of staff members, I stood near a bloke who was complaining loudly to another SA about not being able to buy a Daytona. Four happy customers, a fifth on their way in. One disgruntled punter making it loudly know he was not happy. Just thought I'd mention that for a bit of balance.

[BillA]

Originally Posted by N0trub

I have had a very pleasant experience with my local AD but still no watch and if they don’t come through how could I spend more monies with them in the future. This for me is not ideal I need jewelry for my wife and daughter also I want more watches. Really seems a horrible business model all around yet here i am on an Internet forum lol. I was told 6 weeks to 6 years and that I had an appropriate spend history for said watch. Ok I waited 13 months for my exp II to get the spa treatment in Geneva i can do it. Here we are 14 months after my request and “we hope to sell you this watch very soon”. I have been in five times since request and taken another rolex to them for a service. It’s disheartening my time is valuable. The AD near my wife’s parents in Florida told me simply 12-14 months. This all is so crazy as i am asking to spend over 12k and more in the future….i don't think i will ever feel like my AD is looking out for me the way some on here ruminate about. The problem is open market value being more than retail. Fun fact Chevy makes less than 840,000 trucks a year so called scarcity is not real.

Are you talking to the right person at the AD? Does this person control the allocation of Rolex watches? Find that person and establish a dialogue. Most of the SA’s are a waste of time.

[Mike G]

I personally don’t see a problem with Rolex or Rolex AD.
I been collecting for years and never bought a watch I didn’t want.
Never been to my AD and they forced me to buy a watch. I don’t own any gold watches because I don’t like them, and I won’t buy it because my AD asked me to do so.
I love the idea of waiting for my watch for a year or two and I think it just makes the watch all more special when I get it. I love to visit the AD and say hi and talk watches and I been lucky to have an amazing AD near me with a great sales staff. They have never asked me to buy a watch I don’t want.
I bet if Rolex had a Daytona for us to pick on same day 90% of people who complain here would walk away and won’t buy it.
Enjoy the watch and buy what you like and if you wait a bit for you to get it so be it and treat your AD fair and they will do the same.

[dubins930]

Originally Posted by BillA

Padi, partially disagree, the problem is not at the AD, the problem is the grey market. If people would stop lining the pockets of the grey dealers who sell over MSRP, then we could get normalcy. I for one will not pay over msrp for a watch, that is my decision, people who do have the right to spend their money as they wish.

I think you’re spot on here, however I’m sure there are some ADs selling to greys to line their pockets as well. I’ve also been told to my face by an AD that my first watch with them will not be a Rolex… so some of them are a problem as well!

[L_S_SHOE]

I agree with the OP, mostly. I’ll add that Rolex treats their legacy ADs poorly. My AD with whom I had a relationship lost their AD status because they wouldn’t or couldn’t build a new store. They’d been selling Rolex for 70 years. Rolex is not as hands off as people claim. They don’t just send the watches to the AD and say goodbye. They’re involved in every aspect of what happens to that watch after it gets to the AD, and they very much want to control how their brand is perceived. I’d argue that Rolex is complicit with and probably very happy with the current situation.

The few times I’ve visited an AD recently have been unpleasant. The current generation of SAs seem aloof and disinterested. They think they’re selling a Patek, and I’m pretty sure Rolex wants the world to believe they make a Patek-quality watch. But they don’t and we all know it. They’re a hype machine, and they make a better than average watch.

I’m fortunate now because Rolex no longer makes a watch that I really want. I have no plans to build a new relationship with another AD. I still admire the brand, but my focus is on the discontinued references.

Good luck to all. I hope you find a decent SA and I hope you don’t have to play too many games.


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[DC116710LN]

Originally Posted by bluestreak

There are clearly more people who want to buy the watches than there are watches to go around. How should they allocate the watches? How do you know the watches that came in went to someone who had been waiting longer than you? Or had been a customer longer?

The issue with the current market is that somebody simply isn’t getting a watch. It’s unclear why so many think that person should be somebody else and not them.

Agreed

[thenewrick]

My AD offered me an Airking and I declined. I'm pretty good on watches right now. They know I want a Milgauss if they release a new one and I like it. I'll probably get one of those pretty quickly. I'm mostly looking at vintage these days. I do like MOP dials though..