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Gedanken · 3 November 2005, 12:07 PM

Hey guys,

I was (quite embarrassingly) stuck for an answer when someone asked me why the No-Date Sub was not COSC certified. Anybody got an answer to this one?

The closest I've been able to get to an answer is either:
1) it reduces cost and is distinguished from the Sub Date
2) it leads back to the 5513 and 6200/4/5 which have no chronometer inscription on the dial

*EDIT: Whoops - 14060M, not 14040!

RogerF · 3 November 2005, 01:52 PM

I dont have the answer, but I did fix the title for you

Rockrolex · 3 November 2005, 01:56 PM

Can't help you, James. I haven't the foggiest.

dman · 3 November 2005, 02:19 PM

All I could find is that they choose not to do it, no idea why or why not. Especially since I believe the EXP and it share the same movement and the EXP is certified.

Gedanken · 3 November 2005, 02:27 PM

Yeah, well, that's them crazy kids at Rolex for ya!

Uncle-AJ · 3 November 2005, 02:46 PM

It's probably to save on costs so the price of the end item is cheaper.

padi56 · 3 November 2005, 07:08 PM

Yes it all comes down to cost,and don't forget only the movement
is tested.Most any modern day movement can perform to the COSC
standard with a little fine tuning

JJ Irani · 3 November 2005, 07:11 PM

Probably to have a little less "clutter" on the dial....like....

SUPERLATIVE CHRONOMETER
OFFICIALLY CERTIFIED

Pete26 · 3 November 2005, 07:30 PM

Rolex only certify their date movements with the exception of the Daytona and the Explorer1. The others are considered entry level, though there is nothing wrong with that at all. It's the Rolex attempt to offer products at every price point.

Sorry I like the IKON of two guys drinking. Pitiful really.

padi56 · 3 November 2005, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Sorry I like the IKON of two guys drinking. Pitiful really.

Nothing wrong with having a drink Pete, have a few from more from another Pete.

Earl · 3 November 2005, 10:23 PM

[QUOTE=Pete26]Rolex only certify their date movements with the exception of the Daytona and the Explorer1. The others are considered entry level, though there is nothing wrong with that at all. It's the Rolex attempt to offer products at every price point.

QUOTE]

I think Pete may very well have a valid point there. Maybe, it has to do with how many complications the watch has.. ??

3 November 2005, 11:29 PM

The people at Rolex Canada told me it was cost thing.

dman · 3 November 2005, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atomic

The people at Rolex Canada told me it was cost thing.

That makes sense!!

s7horton · 3 November 2005, 11:40 PM

I'm sure it has to do with cost. I believe that is currently the only watch in the professional line under 4K retail in the US.

padi56 · 3 November 2005, 11:53 PM

100% down to cost.
The COSC test refers to the movement only because uncased movements are all that the testers get. These blank movements without dial, hands and winding crown are received and given standard hands and dials. Depending on whether manual or automatic winding, they received standard state-of-wind and are tested. The test procedure uses photography time lapse at set times daily, synchronised by a master clock. Any deviation of the seconds hand from master clock, seen on the photo, is the daily variation recorded.
The COSC test is quite expensive around £110 to £140 per movement

The movement is then returned to manufacturer who can take as long as they want to finally encase the movement in your "chronometer watch".

Some reasons why the COSC procedure IMO can be meaningless in real terms:

As I already indicated, only the movements are submitted for testing. Not even hands and dials are present, these are added at the institute. It is common knowledge, however, that additional shipping and handling, and above all, encasing the movements, can and will drastically affect its accuracy from original test.

padi56 · 4 November 2005, 02:37 AM

Quote:

think Pete may very well have a valid point there. Maybe, it has to do with how many complications the watch has.. ??

I would doubt if its anything to do with the amount of complications
just a simple cost saving of around £110-£140 per movement.

JJ Irani · 4 November 2005, 03:17 AM

I'm not sure how important this COSC thing is. I never before had the opportunity to monitor a non-COSC Rolex; but since Nina's got her's, I assure that even the base model is pretty spot-on!!

Earl · 4 November 2005, 03:26 AM

OK Peter what your saying "just the movement" is sent off, does it even have the added complications attached at this point you think?

padi56 · 4 November 2005, 03:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Earl

OK Peter what your saying "just the movement" is sent off, does it even have the added complications attached at this point you think?

As far as I can understand from my reading Earl,its just the bare bone movement.

JJ Irani · 4 November 2005, 03:35 AM

Padi's right.....I remember reading this same comment on the other forum.

Gedanken · 4 November 2005, 07:25 AM

Damn, £140 per movement? Didn't I recall someone at the other place once claiming that the test cost only a few quid?

Earl · 4 November 2005, 09:05 AM

Hmmmm Now that I think of it...I had / have heard that they (the COSC ppl) only randomly test a number of movements of the lot?? If this is true, all the movements will be within COSC spec's even with out the certification of it.

Gedanken · 4 November 2005, 10:10 AM

Yeah, that'd be about right, Earl. There are a fair number of guys who report that that their 14060s are within COSC spec.

dman · 4 November 2005, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gedanken

Yeah, that'd be about right, Earl. There are a fair number of guys who report that that their 14060s are within COSC spec.

James, I think you will find way more that are within than those that are out of spec. MHO.

Gedanken · 4 November 2005, 10:39 AM

Yeah, Daren, that wouldn't surprise me at all. Hell, a 3130's a 3130, COSC or not - any difference in performance can be made up for by simple regulation.

dman · 4 November 2005, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gedanken

Yeah, Daren, that wouldn't surprise me at all. Hell, a 3130's a 3130, COSC or not - any difference in performance can be made up for by simple regulation.

Uh yessir.

padi56 · 4 November 2005, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Earl

Hmmmm Now that I think of it...I had / have heard that they (the COSC ppl) only randomly test a number of movements of the lot?? If this is true, all the movements will be within COSC spec's even with out the certification of it.

Not true Earl every movement submitted to the Instituted is fully tested this is why it costs so much.Now what happens
to the failed movements and yes some do fail,well that I don't
know.But like I have said many times,even a humble Miyota movement can be fine tuned to meet the COSC standard.The
wifes Tudor a ETA movement has been + 4 day constant now
for almost 9 months.And have tuned several ETA 2824-t2 to be well within COSC standards.

3 November 2005, 12:07 PM	#1
Gedanken "TRF" Member Join Date: May 2005 Real Name: Sir Location: Melbourne Watch: F-series SD Posts: 8,589	14060m Hey guys, I was (quite embarrassingly) stuck for an answer when someone asked me why the No-Date Sub was not COSC certified. Anybody got an answer to this one? The closest I've been able to get to an answer is either: 1) it reduces cost and is distinguished from the Sub Date 2) it leads back to the 5513 and 6200/4/5 which have no chronometer inscription on the dial *EDIT: Whoops - 14060M, not 14040! __________________ You buy a Casio to make sure you're on time; you wear a Rolex because you don't have to be on time.

3 November 2005, 01:56 PM	#3
Rockrolex TRF Moderator & 2024 DATE-JUST41 Patron Join Date: May 2005 Real Name: God Location: Washington, D.C. Watch: What do you think? Posts: 37,554	Can't help you, James. I haven't the foggiest. __________________ Despite the high cost of living, it's still very popular. *Tosser Cabinet Member* Official Member: 'Perpetual 30' Vegas International GTG 2016 Official Member "WIS-CON" Las Vegas International GTG 2017 Official Member "WIS-CON" Las Vegas International GTG 2018 Official Member "WIS-CON" Las Vegas International GTG 2019

3 November 2005, 02:19 PM	#4
dman Lifetime TRF Patron Join Date: May 2005 Real Name: Daren Location: Austin Watch: the road Posts: 13,583	All I could find is that they choose not to do it, no idea why or why not. Especially since I believe the EXP and it share the same movement and the EXP is certified. __________________ You either get it or you don't, if you have to ask, YOU DON'T!! I really hope that midget cop doesn't find me in Kokomo.

3 November 2005, 02:27 PM	#5
Gedanken "TRF" Member Join Date: May 2005 Real Name: Sir Location: Melbourne Watch: F-series SD Posts: 8,589	Yeah, well, that's them crazy kids at Rolex for ya! __________________ You buy a Casio to make sure you're on time; you wear a Rolex because you don't have to be on time.

3 November 2005, 02:46 PM	#6
Uncle-AJ "TRF" Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Real Name: Adrian Location: Bolton, UK. Watch: Daytona 116520 Posts: 6,844	It's probably to save on costs so the price of the end item is cheaper. __________________ A man with a watch knows what time it is. A man with two watches is never sure.........Segal's Law Member #10

3 November 2005, 01:52 PM	#2
RogerF "TRF" Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Real Name: Duh! Location: Toronto Canada Watch: a gonna do? Posts: 2,573	I dont have the answer, but I did fix the title for you

3 November 2005, 07:08 PM	#7
padi56 "TRF" Life Patron Join Date: Jun 2005 Real Name: Peter Location: Llanfairpwllgwyng Watch: ing you. Posts: 52,404	Yes it all comes down to cost,and don't forget only the movement is tested.Most any modern day movement can perform to the COSC standard with a little fine tuning __________________ ICom Pro3 All posts are my own opinion and my opinion only. "The clock of life is wound but once, and no man has the power to tell just when the hands will stop. Now is the only time you actually own the time, Place no faith in time, for the clock may soon be still for ever." Good Judgement comes from experience,experience comes from Bad Judgement,.Buy quality, cry once; buy cheap, cry again and again. www.mc0yad.club Second in command CEO and left handed watch winder

3 November 2005, 07:11 PM	#8
JJ Irani Fondly Remembered Join Date: May 2005 Real Name: JJ Location: Auckland, NZ Watch: ALL SOLD!! Posts: 74,320	Probably to have a little less "clutter" on the dial....like.... SUPERLATIVE CHRONOMETER OFFICIALLY CERTIFIED __________________ Words fail me in expressing my utmost thanks to ALL of you for this wonderful support during my hour of need!! I firmly believe that my time on planet earth is NOT yet up!! I shall fight this to the very end.......and WIN!!

3 November 2005, 07:30 PM	#9
Pete26 Banned Join Date: Oct 2005 Real Name: Peter Location: Australia Posts: 603	It's a cost thing... Rolex only certify their date movements with the exception of the Daytona and the Explorer1. The others are considered entry level, though there is nothing wrong with that at all. It's the Rolex attempt to offer products at every price point. Sorry I like the IKON of two guys drinking. Pitiful really.

3 November 2005, 10:23 PM	#11
Earl "TRF" Member Join Date: May 2005 Real Name: Who Me? Location: Northern Virginia Watch: out Posts: 4,616	[QUOTE=Pete26]Rolex only certify their date movements with the exception of the Daytona and the Explorer1. The others are considered entry level, though there is nothing wrong with that at all. It's the Rolex attempt to offer products at every price point. QUOTE] I think Pete may very well have a valid point there. Maybe, it has to do with how many complications the watch has.. ??

3 November 2005, 11:29 PM	#12
Atomic Guest Posts: n/a	The people at Rolex Canada told me it was cost thing.

3 November 2005, 11:40 PM	#14
s7horton "TRF" Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Real Name: Seth Location: Grand Rapids, MI Watch: 16613LB, 126610….. Posts: 994	I'm sure it has to do with cost. I believe that is currently the only watch in the professional line under 4K retail in the US.

3 November 2005, 11:53 PM	#15
padi56 "TRF" Life Patron Join Date: Jun 2005 Real Name: Peter Location: Llanfairpwllgwyng Watch: ing you. Posts: 52,404	100% down to cost. The COSC test refers to the movement only because uncased movements are all that the testers get. These blank movements without dial, hands and winding crown are received and given standard hands and dials. Depending on whether manual or automatic winding, they received standard state-of-wind and are tested. The test procedure uses photography time lapse at set times daily, synchronised by a master clock. Any deviation of the seconds hand from master clock, seen on the photo, is the daily variation recorded. The COSC test is quite expensive around £110 to £140 per movement The movement is then returned to manufacturer who can take as long as they want to finally encase the movement in your "chronometer watch". Some reasons why the COSC procedure IMO can be meaningless in real terms: As I already indicated, only the movements are submitted for testing. Not even hands and dials are present, these are added at the institute. It is common knowledge, however, that additional shipping and handling, and above all, encasing the movements, can and will drastically affect its accuracy from original test. __________________ ICom Pro3 All posts are my own opinion and my opinion only. "The clock of life is wound but once, and no man has the power to tell just when the hands will stop. Now is the only time you actually own the time, Place no faith in time, for the clock may soon be still for ever." Good Judgement comes from experience,experience comes from Bad Judgement,.Buy quality, cry once; buy cheap, cry again and again. www.mc0yad.club Second in command CEO and left handed watch winder

4 November 2005, 03:17 AM	#17
JJ Irani Fondly Remembered Join Date: May 2005 Real Name: JJ Location: Auckland, NZ Watch: ALL SOLD!! Posts: 74,320	I'm not sure how important this COSC thing is. I never before had the opportunity to monitor a non-COSC Rolex; but since Nina's got her's, I assure that even the base model is pretty spot-on!! __________________ Words fail me in expressing my utmost thanks to ALL of you for this wonderful support during my hour of need!! I firmly believe that my time on planet earth is NOT yet up!! I shall fight this to the very end.......and WIN!!

4 November 2005, 03:26 AM	#18
Earl "TRF" Member Join Date: May 2005 Real Name: Who Me? Location: Northern Virginia Watch: out Posts: 4,616	OK Peter what your saying "just the movement" is sent off, does it even have the added complications attached at this point you think?

4 November 2005, 03:35 AM	#20
JJ Irani Fondly Remembered Join Date: May 2005 Real Name: JJ Location: Auckland, NZ Watch: ALL SOLD!! Posts: 74,320	Padi's right.....I remember reading this same comment on the other forum. __________________ Words fail me in expressing my utmost thanks to ALL of you for this wonderful support during my hour of need!! I firmly believe that my time on planet earth is NOT yet up!! I shall fight this to the very end.......and WIN!!

4 November 2005, 07:25 AM	#21
Gedanken "TRF" Member Join Date: May 2005 Real Name: Sir Location: Melbourne Watch: F-series SD Posts: 8,589	Damn, £140 per movement? Didn't I recall someone at the other place once claiming that the test cost only a few quid? __________________ You buy a Casio to make sure you're on time; you wear a Rolex because you don't have to be on time.

4 November 2005, 09:05 AM	#22
Earl "TRF" Member Join Date: May 2005 Real Name: Who Me? Location: Northern Virginia Watch: out Posts: 4,616	Hmmmm Now that I think of it...I had / have heard that they (the COSC ppl) only randomly test a number of movements of the lot?? If this is true, all the movements will be within COSC spec's even with out the certification of it.

4 November 2005, 10:10 AM	#23
Gedanken "TRF" Member Join Date: May 2005 Real Name: Sir Location: Melbourne Watch: F-series SD Posts: 8,589	Yeah, that'd be about right, Earl. There are a fair number of guys who report that that their 14060s are within COSC spec. __________________ You buy a Casio to make sure you're on time; you wear a Rolex because you don't have to be on time.

4 November 2005, 10:39 AM	#25
Gedanken "TRF" Member Join Date: May 2005 Real Name: Sir Location: Melbourne Watch: F-series SD Posts: 8,589	Yeah, Daren, that wouldn't surprise me at all. Hell, a 3130's a 3130, COSC or not - any difference in performance can be made up for by simple regulation. __________________ You buy a Casio to make sure you're on time; you wear a Rolex because you don't have to be on time.

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