Warnings and red flags when buying complete sets

[springer]

VINTAGE ROLEX - BUYING COMPLETE SETS

While there has been much written here on the forum concerning the purchase of vintage watches, I’d like to address some issues for the novice and other collectors they might want to consider before their next purchase, especially a Rolex that is complete with accessories.

My observations and comments here are based on my 25 years of collecting watches, interactions with many other watch collectors and my background and expertise in counterfeiting, fraud and investigations.

Like several others here on the forum, I am contacted almost weekly to examine a particular watch for an opinion regarding its originality and value. While I would never call myself an expert on vintage Rolex, I do know enough about some models, and a little about other models, to usually give an informed opinion. What I do know is when something doesn’t look right, which is based on the 37 years in my profession. All one has to know is, to include the casual, novice collector, what are some of the “red flags” that would make you question a particular watch and authenticity as stated by a seller.

One area to consider is any watch that is being sold as 100% original and purchased from the original owner. I usually scrutinize these watches more than others for anything that would indicate otherwise. As an example, if I see one of these watches for sale, and the box is 10 years newer than the watch, something is not right. If the watch comes with all the original booklets, receipts, warranty paper and other accessories and is missing the box, I have a hard time with that. My first thought is, “why did the box disappear and where did it go?” Another area of concern for me is mismatched parts, i.e. a watch containing parts from later versions of the same watch. One mismatched part I’m starting to see lately are mismatched dials. The red flag here is when you question the owner about a particular part being from a later model watch and they tell you, “while it might be from a later model Rolex, the part “is original and anything is possible from Rolex.” While this statement in itself is partially true, one must always consider whether it is “probable.” Possible and probable should both be considered and are not the same.

Two other red flags that I always question are original, non-USA model watches wearing USA-made bands and/or accompanied by USA made boxes. Rolexes sold in France or elsewhere did not come with USA made boxes or fitted with USA made bands. These both should be red flags and make you question the seller regarding their authenticity. If the seller tells you they are original, and the warranty paper indicates the watch was sold outside of the USA, I’d see a major red flag. This would not be probable. Along this same line is the warranty paper. Is the warranty paper English and the country of sale not English? Another area to consider is whether USA watches from the mid-1970’s on which have French warranty papers – another red flag. There was a time period from the late 1960’s until the early 1970’s when most of the larger warranty papers were in French, even within the USA. Although I cannot address a particular year when this started and ended, one should be aware of this.

Another area to consider is mismatched accessories in a complete set: to include the incorrect hang tags, warranty paper, owner’s booklet etc. As an example, most of the late 1960’s thru the mid-1980’s Rolex watches came with green hang tags (also called SwimPruf tags) with the model name, i.e. DateJust, Submariner, GMT Master etc. embossed on the tag. There was also a green Oyster SwimPruf hangtag used on some of the other models which only read SwimPruf and did not have a model name embossed on the hangtag. GMT’s, Subs, Datejusts etc. should have the model name embossed on the green hangtag and not contain the generic SwimPruf tag. Is it possible that a Submariner came from Rolex with a generic SwimPruf tag, possible but not probable.

Another “red flag” are COSC red hangtags. The early versions had the Rolex coronet and wording embossed on the tag. During the very late 1980’s, Rolex started placing holograms on these hangtags. A GMT from 1984 did not come with the hologram version of the red COSC red hangtag. This would be a “red flag.”

Warranty papers are another problem area, although it really shouldn’t be. Warranty papers can add substantial value to a vintage Rolex so having one is a bonus. I have a library of over 250 warranty papers and have studied and categorized them from the late 1960’s thru 2005. Most vintage warranty papers contained punched serial numbers from the watch. Some contained hand written serial numbers from the watch and sometime during the late 1970’s and continuing thru the 1990’s, warranty papers were typed. Summing this up, vintage warranty papers could be punched, typed or hand written. There are also manufacturing codes at the bottom of the warranty paper that will help date the paper to the watch and determine whether it is an original paper. While most vintage warranty papers from the 1960’s and 1970’s contained hole punched serial serials, you will occasionally find hand written serial numbers on them.

In regard to “punched papers,” there is a difference between the font used to punch the numbers on USA papers vs non-USA punched papers – the most notable difference being the way the “6’s” are stamped. Also, the height of the numbers are much taller on non-USA warranty papers when compared to USA warranty papers.

My experience, and evidence from possessing hundreds of warranty papers in the past indicate that, based on a Rolex serial number, the following assumptions can be made:

a) During the 1960’s, a Rolex was usually sold two to four years after the date of manufacture. Three years seem to be the norm and a Rolex being sold new less than a year after the manufacture date would be very, very unlikely. If I see a watch with a 1968 manufacture date, and a warranty paper dated 1968. It is a “red flag.”
b) During the 1970’s the same principle applies as the 1960’s
c) During the 1980’s, the spread seems to narrow from the 1960’s and 1970’s and you start to see new Rolexes being sold within a year of manufacture, while a two year lapse between manufacture and sale date is the norm. Also, during the early 1980’s, USA warranty papers are date coded on the back from Rolex with a combination of letters from “ROLEXWATCH.” This code indicates when a Rolex was shipped to a dealer for resale. Each letter in “ROLEXWATCH” is represented by a number in the code as follows:

R O L E X W A T C H = 1, 2, 3, 4,5,6,7,8,9,0. As an example, the stamped code of XRLTX= 51385= May 13, 85

d) During the 1990’s and up, the span between a watches’ date of manufacture and selling date narrows and it is not unusual to find a Rolex being sold the same year as its manufacture.

Chronometer papers from vintage Rolexes during the 1960’s are another added bonus to a vintage Rolex. This document indicates the COSC timing, serial number etc. for a particular Rolex and is dated when this was accomplished by the Swiss Bureau that verifies Rolex chronometers. Many of these chronometer certifications were included with the accessories and warranty paper during the purchase of a new Rolex during the 1960’s and early 1970’s.

With the information given so far, let me give an example of a Rolex for sale with original chronometer papers, warranty documents and accessories. If you had a mid-1960’s Rolex, with a chronometer certificate dated 1/20/1966, and a warranty paper dated 7/1966, along with other supporting documents to include – possibly a receipt, dated 7/1966, would this be possible? Maybe, but not probable. How could a Rolex be certified as a chronometer in 1966 and six months later be sold by a dealer? Once the watch receives its chronometer certification, as 1/20/1966 from my example, it will eventually be returned to Rolex in Switzerland – which does not happen overnight! The watch will remain with Rolex until it is eventually shipped to a dealer or distribution center, such as Rolex USA.

All this takes time. Referring back to my previous statement, and considering that it normally takes two, three or four years before this watch makes it to a dealer and is eventually sold, how can a watch be sold six months after being certified as a chronometer? Is it a “red flag” to see a watch certified as a chronometer during 1966 and sold new to a customer six months later? I would call this improbable and a major “red flag.” Normally with this type of sale, you will find that there are other red flags with the accessories or watch components if you look hard enough.

Owner manuals and Your Rolex Oyster booklets are usually date coded and often indicate the language in which it is written. While “ENG” means English, there is also a USA stamping in many booklets too. USA booklets should read USA not ENG. Often times I see watches for sale with totally incorrect owner’s manuals or Your Rolex Oyster booklets. This would be another red flag.

One last area that I’d like to mention concerns a thorough examination of the watch case and bracelet. Always pay attention to wear marks/tool marks on a band or watch case to determine whether it is consistent with the claims being made about the watch.

In summation, while it is a good practice to “buy the seller before the watch,” we all know there have been issues with reputable sellers from ebay to Timbuktu – to include authors, supposed experts and vintage dealers. What you need to do as a buyer is to sort thru everything, be your own detective and don’t always fall for the line, “anything is possible from Rolex.” While, on a rare occasion this might be possible, you always have to ask yourself, “Is it probable.”

jP

[powerfunk]

Awesome post John! Learned a lot; thanks.

[kesyersoze]

Thank you John for your insights into buying complete sets for vintage Rolex. It is a minefield especially for a newbie to work their way thru when it comes down to some of these "complete" sets being flogged in the market. Hopefully, your warning here will help out the buyers in making an informed decision. Thanks for sharing! Cheers!

[cruvon]

Beautiful post John, will add a link to it in the Questions newbies should ask about watch attributes thread here

http://rolexforums.com/showthread.ph...highlight=list

[cdweller]

Fantastic info, thanks for taking the time to post it

[subtona]

Thanks for sharing & taking the time to educate.

[bgriz]

Great info, thank you. There are many good points made in there, some of which is why I do not yet own a red sub.
Buy the seller can still be tricky.

[Paladin]

Amazing amount of information you have shared with us....THANK YOU! Tis is why I have always considered you to be the "full set" expert here on TRF.

Just one thing.....based on the following;

R O L E X W A T C H = 1, 2, 3, 4,5,6,7,8,9,0. As an example, the stamped code of XRLTX= 51385= Mar 13, 85

Would the date not be May 13, 1985??


Thanks again !

[Vincent65]

excellent post

[springer]

Originally Posted by Paladin

Amazing amount of information you have shared with us....THANK YOU! Tis is why I have always considered you to be the "full set" expert here on TRF.

Just one thing.....based on the following;

R O L E X W A T C H = 1, 2, 3, 4,5,6,7,8,9,0. As an example, the stamped code of XRLTX= 51385= Mar 13, 85

Would the date not be May 13, 1985??


Thanks again !

Correct, too many late nights for me. Thanks.

[Jim M]

What a nice read, good stuff!

[Submarino]

Great post John!!!! Awesome information.

Mods, could you please make this thread a sticky?

[andyboy39]

Awesome post, very informative. Will be using this for references..

[Trabant Dave]

Splendid article, very useful to a newbie like me

Thanks

[Mark020]

Originally Posted by powerfunk

Awesome post John! Learned a lot; thanks.

+1. Thanks buddy!

[Kiwinz]

Thanks for taking the time to post such an wonderful article.
Certainly learned something

[theloxmyth]

+1 !

[Brushpup]

This was a really nice post John. Well written, and very nice of you to spend your time explaining. I appreciate very much, and learned how little I really know. Nothing like the voice of experience.

Excellent post, and thanks again!

[AWS]

Great post and sage advice, John.

This should be a link as Cruvon mentioned or even a Sticky.

Thanks for your expertise.

[Frogman4me]

Thank you John for taking the time out to do this write up. Great post my friend.

[katana]

Great Post...Thank you...

[JustinK]

Thanks for sharing your expertise. Great post!

[swatty]

Excellent post John, thank

[Grissom]

John, thank you for taking your personal time to create such a useful post for the rest of us!

[cornerstore]

Great post . Anomalies are out there however.I have a one owner Tudor Sub 79090 (I'm second owner)Purchased New from a Rolex US AD sale dated 1990. It came in a Rolex Box (made in USA) and with mixed Rolex and Tudor accessories.Even the sales slip refers to it as a "Gents Rolex watch". The booklet it came with is printed in Switzerland... ENG.. and dated 1989.As I said great post .

[jolimont]

Thanks John great info there

[springer]

Originally Posted by cornerstore

Great post . Anomalies are out there however.I have a one owner Tudor Sub 79090 (I'm second owner)Purchased New from a Rolex US AD sale dated 1990. It came in a Rolex Box (made in USA) and with mixed Rolex and Tudor accessories.Even the sales slip refers to it as a "Gents Rolex watch". The booklet it came with is printed in Switzerland... ENG.. and dated 1989.As I said great post .

Having the correct vintage Rolex box instead of a Tudor box wouldn't be much concern in itself. So what are the "mixed" Rolex Tudor accessories?

[Beaumont Miller II]

John great advice. Thanks for taking the time to start this great thread.

[Kanger]

Great post here in the vintage community. I am learning everyday about vintage Rolex watches, which I must admit are out of my expertise beside the common information available on the web. Springer's understanding of vintage Rolexes from the analytics of fonts, numbering system, and years of knowledge is unbelievable. I was hoping the vintage community can give me an assessment on a piece I am selling. I am attaching the link to my original ad, which I am sure most of you have seen, but also two pictures I took at my watchmaker with my down and dirty iPhone. The quality was inconsistent with the rest of the pictures in my ad, which were taken with a DSLR, so I never posted them, but I feel that a guy like Springer can chime in along with the other vintage heavyweights on TRF. The markings on the caseback are like hieroglyphics to me, and any education is appreciated! Thanks guys you all freaking rock

http://rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=258296

Plus These Two iPhone Pictures Taken At My Watchmaker's Shop

[DrLindaPhD]

Thank you John. I love learning the facts from other experts as I am trying to learn myself. However, I have sold a few of my vintage rolex watches. I like to find a vintage box to go with it. I don't advertise it as the original box. I only advertise that I am selling a vintage rolex watch with a vintage rolex box. I don't say that it is not the original box and I don't say it is. Do you think I should clarify that? The boxes can be very expensive but I try to collect as many as possible because I like to sell a watch with a vintage box. They don't always match but it is a vintage watch and a "same era" box. What do you think?