When Is A Red Sub No Longer Vintage?

[JohnBaker3]

Hey Guys:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1970-Vintage...item2c8e09cd38

Here is a link to a 1970 Red Sub over on eBay; all the work on it was performed by the Dallas RSC.

Only a "couple" of issues with this watch; here are the items that are not "original" ....

1) The dial is a service replacement
2) All hands replaced
3) Bezel insert replaced
4) Crown and Tube "upgraded"
5) The modern 93150 bracelet was polished and repaired

What I see is a watch whose only remaining original parts are the case, the case back and the movement....

I vote to ban this watch from the "Vintage Hall of Fame".

Rant over; go back to football!

[springer]

I took your advice John. I loved the ending to the Cowboys game!!!

[linesiders]

Well, there is some benefit on a Red Sub that lights up like a torch. Might be worth it if your dial was toast and you wanted to skinny dip with the gals @ night

[JohnBaker3]

Originally Posted by springer

I took your advice John. I loved the ending to the Cowboys game!!!

John:

Awesome finish for the Cowboys; Texans head back to Houston a little sadder.

Be safe.

[Im Lauf der Zeit]

Very interesting... can't call it vintage but at least it's all factory parts and RSC-built. How about "authentic period-look Red Sub..."

[Vincent65]

I see your point, but it's properly serviced and functioning, apparently, so the case/back and movement (likely with some replaced parts) are vintage. Not my thing, but it looks very nice and is good to go.

[Micha]

Doesn't Jason own one of these Subs with a service dial, I remember seeing a recent post with a picture (hopefully I am not mistaken). He seemed to like it a lot...

[JohnBaker3]

Originally Posted by Micha

He seemed to like it a lot...

I'm glad someone likes it because it doesn't look anything like the vintage Red Subs that I'm familiar with....

My point of the thread is, what percentage of a watch needs to be "period correct" to be considered "vintage" ? The one for sale is less than 50%...

[Mike1066]

My father owns one of these - we love it.

[JerryO1968]

Part of the reason I joined this thread was to show my Grandfather why he shouldn't let the local Rolex "Dealer" in his area replace damn near every part of his well patina'd early 60's 5512, and polish the crap out of the case. Having met said "Dealer", I am betting all the "worn out" vintage parts would have wound up on Ebay and eventually in Franken watches...

[theSausageKing]

Reminds of Theseus' paradox. If you replace every piece of wood on a ship, is it still the same ship ?

[g-boac]

Originally Posted by JerryO1968

Part of the reason I joined this thread was to show my Grandfather why he shouldn't let the local Rolex "Dealer" in his area replace damn near every part of his well patina'd early 60's 5512, and polish the crap out of the case. Having met said "Dealer", I am betting all the "worn out" vintage parts would have wound up on Ebay and eventually in Franken watches...

Jerry!!!! Is the watch safe? Have you shown your grandfather The Way? If he won't pass the watch on to you for safekeeping, please see if you can persuade him to post it for sale on this forum or VRF as-is. An early 60s, all-original 5512 is worth preserving, and a vintage Rolex is ALWAYS worth more with its original parts even in worn condition, than with new parts, in pristine condition. Especially one to have survived for so long!

cheers,
Mark

[g-boac]

I'm not sure whether we're banishing this watch FROM a Hall of Fame, or voting it INTO a Hall of Shame, but whatever it is, this one is certainly worth noting. Heck, if someone GAVE me this watch, I'd do nothing other than tell them to get it off my lawn!!

Nice find, John. :)

Originally Posted by JohnBaker3

Hey Guys:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1970-Vintage...item2c8e09cd38

Here is a link to a 1970 Red Sub over on eBay; all the work on it was performed by the Dallas RSC.

Only a "couple" of issues with this watch; here are the items that are not "original" ....

1) The dial is a service replacement
2) All hands replaced
3) Bezel insert replaced
4) Crown and Tube "upgraded"
5) The modern 93150 bracelet was polished and repaired

What I see is a watch whose only remaining original parts are the case, the case back and the movement....

I vote to ban this watch from the "Vintage Hall of Fame".

Rant over; go back to football!

[Silvio Mosiello]

It does lack the classic " vintage look" but the watch is really all oem parts done by Rolex. The watch looks great and when you think about it, if you wanted to keep the watch for years and years it will eventually look like your classic vintage sub. Its almost like your buying it new in a way if that makes sense.


Sent from my Motorola Razor

[Jason71]

I have the good fortune of owning a vintage red sub and a Luminova red sub. I don't really consider the luminova red sub "vintage", but who the heck cares?? It is a perfect 'wearing' watch and I much prefer it to the new ceramic abominations that Rolex is producing now. The luminova red gets worn all the time, and the vintage RARELY gets worn.





P.S. I also have a 5513 with a relumed dial and hands......."But Jason....it's not worth as much". I could care less.....it gets worn probably more than any other watch in my collection.

When did these watches go from wristwatches to trophies? Sad.....sad

P.S.S. Abomination was probably too strong of a word since I own a few. I just much prefer the old-style watches

[JohnBaker3]

Hey Guys:

Looks like plenty of members have chimed in about which side of the fence they are on....

Bottom Line: Really great vintage watches are worth saving as important pieces of Rolex history; yes, they may not get worn as much, but they shouldn't be driven until the wheels fall off either....(pun intended)...and the original posted watch is no longer vintage....

I think it might be cool to send a standard 16610 over to Michael Young's shop and have them over-paint "SUBMARINER" in red....you would now have the "vintage look" and a great "daily driver"!

[brandrea]

In my view, it's not vintage if half the parts have been replaced. That doesn't mean it isn't a fine watch, but vintage ... No

[Jason71]

Originally Posted by JohnBaker3

Hey Guys:

Looks like plenty of members have chimed in about which side of the fence they are on....

Bottom Line: Really great vintage watches are worth saving as important pieces of Rolex history; yes, they may not get worn as much, but they shouldn't be driven until the wheels fall off either....(pun intended)...and the original posted watch is no longer vintage....

I think it might be cool to send a standard 16610 over to Michael Young's shop and have them over-paint "SUBMARINER" in red....you would now have the "vintage look" and a great "daily driver"!

Or buy the watch you presented in the OP. At least then it is 100% Rolex issue.

[Beef]

Originally Posted by Jason71

I have the good fortune of owning a vintage red sub and a Luminova red sub. I don't really consider the luminova red sub "vintage", but who the heck cares?? It is a perfect 'wearing' watch and I much prefer it to the new ceramic abominations that Rolex is producing now. The luminova red gets worn all the time, and the vintage RARELY gets worn.





P.S. I also have a 5513 with a relumed dial and hands......."But Jason....it's not worth as much". I could care less.....it gets worn probably more than any other watch in my collection.

When did these watches go from wristwatches to trophies? Sad.....sad

P.S.S. Abomination was probably too strong of a word since I own a few. I just much prefer the old-style watches

I agree 100%. And in the next 20 years, these watches will come into their own. As we all know, you can't stop the hands of time and pristine vintage watch dials will continue to degrade themselves into something that I do not find attractive. I have a few pristine examples: DRSD, Red Sub, 5513 Maxi, 1675s, 1016 and some others that have been "updated." I wear my "updated" watches with pleasure and still consider them vintage. That being said, I also do respect the viewpoint and opinion of the purists here. They are the true Keepers of the Flame and Holders of the Knowledge.

SPOILER ALERT: I will be posting a thread later today or tomorrow on the General Discussion that will not be safe for some forum members. And it's all YOUR damn fault, Jason!

[Jason71]

Originally Posted by Beef

SPOILER ALERT: I will be posting a thread later today or tomorrow on the General Discussion that will not be safe for some forum members. And it's all YOUR damn fault, Jason!

Wow......I can't wait to see it. I love it when I can help put a hole in someone else's wallet

[Beef]

Originally Posted by Jason71

Wow......I can't wait to see it. I love it when I can help put a hole in someone else's wallet

You damn sure did... And the hemorrhage ain't over!

[foodle]

In the interest of full disclosure, I bought the watch in question on eBay (for nowhere near the "buy it now" price). Although it was in excellent cosmetic condition, it arrived with a movement problem and is now at RSC for an estimate (and parts authentication). The seller and I are working out how to pay for the repair. After it's back, I plan to have the crystal swapped to a T19, so it'll look much like Mike1066's dad's one.

As for the question at hand, I'm not concerned with whether it's considered officially "vintage" or not. I wanted a red 1680 that I could read easily at night and that was in as close to new condition as possible, and this one fit the bill. Personally, I'm not a fan of dark patina, so I'm perfectly happy with the dial.

My other red 1680 is a legit "vintage" Mark V dial from 1972, but with very light patina (see below).

[Jason71]

Originally Posted by foodle

In the interest of full disclosure, I bought the watch in question on eBay (for nowhere near the "buy it now" price). Although it was in excellent cosmetic condition, it arrived with a movement problem and is now at RSC for an estimate (and parts authentication). The seller and I are working out how to pay for the repair. After it's back, I plan to have the crystal swapped to a T19, so it'll look much like Mike1066's dad's one.

As for the question at hand, I'm not concerned with whether it's considered officially "vintage" or not. I wanted a red 1680 that I could read easily at night and that was in as close to new condition as possible, and this one fit the bill. Personally, I'm not a fan of dark patina, so I'm perfectly happy with the dial.

My other red 1680 is a legit "vintage" Mark V dial from 1972, but with very light patina (see below).

Good for you

I hope you get the movement sorted, and I hope you love yours half as much as I love mine

[JerryO1968]

Originally Posted by g-boac

Jerry!!!! Is the watch safe? Have you shown your grandfather The Way? If he won't pass the watch on to you for safekeeping, please see if you can persuade him to post it for sale on this forum or VRF as-is. An early 60s, all-original 5512 is worth preserving, and a vintage Rolex is ALWAYS worth more with its original parts even in worn condition, than with new parts, in pristine condition. Especially one to have survived for so long!

cheers,
Mark

Entirely safe (now). He's 87, and he's given it to me several times, but I've explained that I will not take possession of it until I remove it from his wrist, just before they drop him in the ground.

[KellyM3]

I think it looks awesome with service dial

I'd take one in a second it looks great

[Storky]

Hi,
I may be getting a genuine Red sub soon but the dial has really deteriorated and has been badly relumed. Does anyone on the forum know... if the watch was presented to Rolex themselves for service, would they give the option of replacing the dial with a service RED luminova? ... are they still available? (I'm in the UK if it makes any difference) If so I'd jump at the chance (and I think) I'd have a cool watch I could wear it everyday!
Thanks

[dysondiver]

i think its a very smart practical watch to wear.

[Jason71]

Originally Posted by Storky

Hi,
I may be getting a genuine Red sub soon but the dial has really deteriorated and has been badly relumed. Does anyone on the forum know... if the watch was presented to Rolex themselves for service, would they give the option of replacing the dial with a service RED luminova? ... are they still available? (I'm in the UK if it makes any difference) If so I'd jump at the chance (and I think) I'd have a cool watch I could wear it everyday!
Thanks

Check with the London based RSC. I have heard that was one of the last places they were available.

One more pic to temp you

[CrownMe]

A red sub will always be vintage imo unless it has been recased. As long as it has 100% authentic rolex parts it's ok by me.

I would love to have one to wear everyday while my Original sits in the safe. Jason's looks great with that insert.

[Storky]

Originally Posted by Jason71

Check with the London based RSC. I have heard that was one of the last places they were available.

Thanks Jason. If the watch checks out I'll do just that!