The mixed feelings of a new vintage sub

[citanest]

I didn't get into vintage watches until 2016. I have only bought new or inherited whatever my father passed to me. They aren't vintage though. They are 15-20 years old at the most.

I recently bought a 70's sub. I bought it because of the classic look. I often hear people say vintage watch has a ton of history and that is what makes it special. However, despite it is a vintage, it is still a "new" watch to me and I have no memories with it. Ultimately, it just feels like another new watch. In terms of the history others referred to, I find a new sub just has as much history as a vintage sub. Quite frankly, if the new sub didn't have those weird disproportional fat lugs, I would have bought that.

Anyway, I felt that my 2 year old speedmaster has more sentimental value to me than this new "vintage" sub. The scratches, wear and tear on the sub are nice but they do not mean a whole lot to me because I didn't make them. When I saw my speedmaster, I know exactly when and where I made those big dings or where about the smalls ones came from. I have to admit that the hunt on the sub is quite an experience though. May be that's it?
It is all about the hunt? Anyway, I just realize that what makes a watch special is the life experience that reminds or brings you. New or vintage can do the job as long as you wear them.

I am not sure if I am the only one who feels that way or I am weird. Perhaps I still have not learnt how to appreciate vintage watches quite yet.

Thoughts?

Almost forgot to mention, another reason I bought the sub was because my father once explained to me how a diver uses the unidirectional rotating bezel when I was a boy. My father didn't even remember he said that but I do. So, the sub has a special place in my heart. But then again, a new sub will do just that too.

[southtexas]

A lot of it is in the hunt and research, for me at least.


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[springer]

My sentiments are the same as your thoughts regarding the new Subs - as well as the ceramic GMT. They aren't for me either.

As far as vintage goes, opinions vary but many of us enjoy these classic watches which aren't for everyone.

[Sky21]

A lot of people get into vintage because of nostalgia or what the vintage pieces make them feel or remember. I'm talking about watch enthusiasts, not collectors or dealers, just people who enjoy mechanical watches and their history and design. If the vintage look and feel doesn't speak to you then maybe just buy a new one and create your own history. Don't try to force something that isn't there because of external pressure or trying to fit into whatever others are doing. Either way, a Rolex is certainly an investment and you should buy whatever one makes you happy and you enjoy wearing every day.

[Kingface66]

For what it's worth...and I hear what you're saying...vintage Rolexes (in my case, Subs) never appealed to me because of whatever "lifetime of experinces" were rendered unto it. It was, and still is, all about being attracted to a design that isn't produced anymore. To me, bend new Subs look like they were designed using some computer software (as I imagine they are) and have the look of chunky, robotic, production line pieces of metal and ceramic. Just absolutely sterile and dime a dozen.
But, a 50+ year-old gilt Sub, for example looks like it was designed by hand, and painted and put together by hand. Ever so slightly different than the one before and the one after. Add to that decades of aging and patina, and it's just a glorious one of a kind work of art.

But, that's just me.

[redfred]

Originally Posted by Kingface66

For what it's worth...and I hear what you're saying...vintage Rolexes (in my case, Subs) never appealed to me because of whatever "lifetime of experinces" were rendered unto it. It was, and still is, all about being attracted to a design that isn't produced anymore. To me, bend new Subs look like they were designed using some computer software (as I imagine they are) and have the look of chunky, robotic, production line pieces of metal and ceramic. Just absolutely sterile and dime a dozen.
But, a 50+ year-old gilt Sub, for example looks like it was designed by hand, and painted and put together by hand. Ever so slightly different than the one before and the one after. Add to that decades of aging and patina, and it's just a glorious one of a kind work of art.

But, that's just me.

This.

[1William]

For the most part vintage anything does not work for me unless there is a direct tie to my family or friends. I have done vintage watches and cars and they are not for me. I do not like to tinker with things and I do not like dealing with service issues beyond what you get with any ownership experience. I think a lot of folks get caught up in the vintage world when most of it should be called the "Old Stuff" world.

[Amex4711]

Originally Posted by Kingface66

For what it's worth...and I hear what you're saying...vintage Rolexes (in my case, Subs) never appealed to me because of whatever "lifetime of experinces" were rendered unto it. It was, and still is, all about being attracted to a design that isn't produced anymore. To me, bend new Subs look like they were designed using some computer software (as I imagine they are) and have the look of chunky, robotic, production line pieces of metal and ceramic. Just absolutely sterile and dime a dozen.
But, a 50+ year-old gilt Sub, for example looks like it was designed by hand, and painted and put together by hand. Ever so slightly different than the one before and the one after. Add to that decades of aging and patina, and it's just a glorious one of a kind work of art.

But, that's just me.

or a 50+ year old GMT
100% agree, Andy

[sfc rick]

New or old I love them all. But it's something to wear a "vintage" time piece due to it's rarity. Anyone can buy new, but to end up with a Sub that's quite a bit older and still running fine is better.

I personally wear my 77 Sub in White daily and still get the thrill. For a 40 year old Rolex it's better than a new one.

[motoikkyu]

For me, it's a spectrum. I look at a 1950s 18k Date-Just and the color of the alloy is warmer, the dauphine or alpha hands are harmonious --it's just a very different look from the current version. With some vintage models, there are no current equivalents. Others, the changes are more subtle. Sometimes I feel like wearing a matte dial, sometimes the WG surrounds do it for me. I am NOT a patina enthusiast, so it's not about "old stuff" or even nostalgia in my case. Simple aesthetic preference. Love the new Air King: there's no vintage quite like it.

[citanest]

Originally Posted by Kingface66

For what it's worth...and I hear what you're saying...vintage Rolexes (in my case, Subs) never appealed to me because of whatever "lifetime of experinces" were rendered unto it. It was, and still is, all about being attracted to a design that isn't produced anymore. To me, bend new Subs look like they were designed using some computer software (as I imagine they are) and have the look of chunky, robotic, production line pieces of metal and ceramic. Just absolutely sterile and dime a dozen.
But, a 50+ year-old gilt Sub, for example looks like it was designed by hand, and painted and put together by hand. Ever so slightly different than the one before and the one after. Add to that decades of aging and patina, and it's just a glorious one of a kind work of art.

But, that's just me.

Well Said. I think I have been focusing just on the visual appearance of the watch but lose sight of the engineering aspect of it. Like I said, I am new to this and still learning to appreciate the world of vintage.

[lhanddds]

I like vintage watches because they are special. You can't just walk into a dealer and plunk down some cash and you are a watch guy. As long as they are maintained, they are just as reliable as modern watches and, IMHO, have a much better design. Some manufacturers like Heuer (Tag) have started to embrace the older designs such as the Carrera and Autavia and I believe this is going to pay big dividends. Rolex, who had years to come up with the design of the new Daytona, gave us an old watch with a ceramic bezel, disappointing and, oh yes, way too shiny.

[R.W.T.]

Well I'll play devil's advocate from a watchmaker's perspective....While I love the simplicity of an old watch...you know they aren't trying to make a sterile watch and they weren't trying to make a NON sterile watch when your 60's sub was made...it's just how it is. Every single thing they have done let's take the current sports models for example was to impart an improved functional design to the marque. Do I love a rivet bracelet? Sure, when it's tight and the end pieces fit ... but when its a bent up C and I with end pieces that don't fit ANYTHING...I'm not super into it. I'd probably rather have a strap. Actually I think my favorite bands are the folded link 9315 because they are straight...they fit the watch and they don't weigh 7000 lbs. But I was looking at the new Rolex catalogue over the last several days. I often wear bubble backs...most of you wouldn't be caught dead in one because you think your wrist is too big, when that was actually a kind of large watch in its day. So hearing your call...Rolex made a beefier case...now you complain it's too beefy. :-)

The sealing of the sapphire glass, the lack of abuse it takes from minor incidents, the way the new bezels fit and function...and don't fade over time....the new 4 point ratcheting system as opposed to the wire spring that just grinds away at some teeth on the underside...these are real functional improvements. The attention to detail is astounding. The improved crown and tube sealing...incredible advancement in water resistance.

The new luminous material that actually works and continues to do so for many more years than the previous....

The case is bigger and the dial is bigger and the plots are bigger and the hands are bigger...you know why? Because the market is with people who are aging...and they don't see as well. Young people don't even wear watches for the most part.

The technical advances in the escapement and the hairspring and balance...the new in house shock springs that make the removal and replacement of the balance and escape wheel jewels during service a much less potentially frustrating task if they work as well as they appear to.

The ease of adjusting the size of the bracelets.

The case and finish designs are changed to a no holes for spring bars and no chamfers and a straight vs. diagonal satin. All 3 of these things allow the watch to be worn and returned to as new condition with each service without the problems of flaring the springbar holes...or having one lug look extremely disproportionate because of having to remove the effects of mishaps over time. It is a simpler finish to apply and make appear even. Yes its simpler and less time consuming for them...and easier to make it look new again for you...the consumer because regardless of what we say...most people like the look of a fresh watch especially after service. I make watches run well..very few non collector people care...the first comment is...wow...it "looks" great. They have made their work more efficient in the process.

Overall...it's a MUCH better constructed and designed piece of gear.

That doesn't mean a 65 Mustang isn't a great car...but so is a brand new Evo GT. Both have their charm. Before I was a watchmaker, I restored old cars...you get tired of the same issues time and time again....I haven't owned a vintage car in probably 25 years...I like heated seats and a rear window defogger and fuel injection...that starts every time and a heater that works in the winter and an air conditioner that works in the summer...that doesn't make the radiator overheat.

It's all wonderful stuff on the new Rolex. We just might like the appearance and nostalgia of the old ones...myself because of the history. I love the strides that Rolex was making when everyone was dependent on making a better wristwatch and they made history in that field...with their vision and their desire to make a better wearing and performing time piece...impervious to the problems of the modern wearer in the day.

:-)

I look at the new watches...and I have to say the photos make them look way better than they actually do...and I'm not a big guy and mostly they are a lot larger than I prefer but I think the new GMT is a fantastic piece of equipment.

[nigelUK]

[QUOTE=R.W.T.;7721853]Well I'll play devil's advocate from a watchmaker's perspective....While I love the simplicity of an old watch...you know they aren't tryble backs...most of you wouldn't be caught dead in one because you think your wrist is too big, when that was actually a kind of large watch in its day. So ........


Great write up

[emersm]

Good read R.W.T., well done!

[swish77]

Originally Posted by R.W.T.

The case is bigger and the dial is bigger and the plots are bigger and the hands are bigger...you know why? Because the market is with people who are aging...and they don't see as well. Young people don't even wear watches for the most part.

Great points, although I don't fully agree with this part. A lot of younger guys are indeed wearing watches, but they want them more as blingy accessories, not just as functional timepieces. That's a big reason why Rolex, and other watch manufacturers, started making watches bigger and shinier.

[SteveHH]

I have a 1955 Rolex (lucked out for $200.00) and some others from the 1990s, all in perfect condition. I don't collect beat up anything. For some that's the charm of them and as they say in Japan, those watches have "honest wear" on them. Yes, but it's not MY honest wear, it's some stranger. So, I would never buy an old Sub just for the history or the "look."

But that's just me. Any honest wear on a watch better be put on by me, or it's meaningless.

Just my opinion.

[R.W.T.]

Originally Posted by swish77

Great points, although I don't fully agree with this part. A lot of younger guys are indeed wearing watches, but they want them more as blingy accessories, not just as functional timepieces. That's a big reason why Rolex, and other watch manufacturers, started making watches bigger and shinier.

Possibly...on one hand. You'll note Rolex was slower to go to the larger sizes as well.

I can't really say too much but it was kind of inside trickle down info.


Sure some younger guys are wearing watches for fashion I agree...that has always been the case...just now everyone has to do more and more to get noticed...people...looks...fashion....everything is hype and hype is disproportionate...it's the numbing factor of the creation now. It takes a LOT more to get attention...and attention is what everyone is desperate for it seems. However....many people don't use watches at all these days...they have an I phone. :-)

It's not the important accessory that it was 40 years ago what to say of 70 years ago.

[sutats]

I can imagine it's the thrill of the chase for some. There is a good level of research to be done to avoid buying a lemon and locating a vintage piece in trustworthy or complete condition.

If you want some history perhaps maybe you could take a look at the military issued Submariners for the British armed forces or French Marine Nationale where the watches would've have been put through their paces by some of the toughest people on the planet.

[FTX I]

Originally Posted by R.W.T.

Well I'll play devil's advocate from a watchmaker's perspective....While I love the simplicity of an old watch...you know they aren't trying to make a sterile watch and they weren't trying to make a NON sterile watch when your 60's sub was made...it's just how it is. Every single thing they have done let's take the current sports models for example was to impart an improved functional design to the marque. Do I love a rivet bracelet? Sure, when it's tight and the end pieces fit ... but when its a bent up C and I with end pieces that don't fit ANYTHING...I'm not super into it. I'd probably rather have a strap. Actually I think my favorite bands are the folded link 9315 because they are straight...they fit the watch and they don't weigh 7000 lbs. But I was looking at the new Rolex catalogue over the last several days. I often wear bubble backs...most of you wouldn't be caught dead in one because you think your wrist is too big, when that was actually a kind of large watch in its day. So hearing your call...Rolex made a beefier case...now you complain it's too beefy. :-)

......

.

Great post

[JP Chestnut]

Originally Posted by lhanddds

I like vintage watches because they are special. You can't just walk into a dealer and plunk down some cash and you are a watch guy.

Sure you can. In fact, you don't even need to leave your home. You can have an amazing vintage collection tomorrow (well, not Sunday two days before the 4th) - you just need a huge pile of cash. People aren't out hunting barn finds anymore.

[themaninblack]

Originally Posted by JP Chestnut

Sure you can. In fact, you don't even need to leave your home. You can have an amazing vintage collection tomorrow (well, not Sunday two days before the 4th) - you just need a huge pile of cash. People aren't out hunting barn finds anymore.

Spot on. Nearly every major dealer sells over the internet as do the auction houses. I think a big percentage of vintage is purchased that way. The OP makes some valid points. I like vintage watches but there isn't much romance in it any more, it's all pretty well contrived, marketed and predictable now. When news of Paul Newman's Daytona coming on for sale hit the social media my feeling was pretty much a mixture of boredom and 'let the circus begin'.

[BLNR Nairobi]

Seriously good post RWT. That was an enjoyable (and edifying) read. Thank you.

[lhanddds]

Originally Posted by themaninblack

Spot on. Nearly every major dealer sells over the internet as do the auction houses. I think a big percentage of vintage is purchased that way. The OP makes some valid points. I like vintage watches but there isn't much romance in it any more, it's all pretty well contrived, marketed and predictable now. When news of Paul Newman's Daytona coming on for sale hit the social media my feeling was pretty much a mixture of boredom and 'let the circus begin'.

Some get it some don't, why would vintage watches go up in value and modern go down?


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[lhanddds]

Originally Posted by JP Chestnut

Sure you can. In fact, you don't even need to leave your home. You can have an amazing vintage collection tomorrow (well, not Sunday two days before the 4th) - you just need a huge pile of cash. People aren't out hunting barn finds anymore.

I guess if you have loads of money you can be a Ferrari collector or anything else for that matter. For the average collector it takes many years to develop a good collection. Rarity is one of the reasons they are going up in price, not down.


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[subx]

Originally Posted by R.W.T.

Well I'll play devil's advocate from a watchmaker's perspective....While I love the simplicity of an old watch.....impervious to the

could not have been said better !

[JP Chestnut]

Originally Posted by lhanddds

I guess if you have loads of money you can be a Ferrari collector or anything else for that matter. For the average collector it takes many years to develop a good collection. Rarity is one of the reasons they are going up in price, not down.


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Did I mention value? No. Anyone with cash can buy just about any standard vintage reference they want. That's a fact.

[lhanddds]

Originally Posted by JP Chestnut

Did I mention value? No. Anyone with cash can buy just about any standard vintage reference they want. That's a fact.

Not sure why you are hangin out here, but in an effort to educate you, I'll tell you this. The many dealers you discuss having and selling vintage watches, are really not that astute. Many are sold without being authenticated. Of course they may be guaranteed but this amounts to them refunding your money (minus shipping). They can't simply go to the back and pull another identical watch out of the safe and hand it to you, like they can at a modern AD. Fake watches ( very good ones) are becoming the norm and it's no place for amateurs. I said they are "special" and they are for a multitude of reasons. As I said some get it some don't. It's ok if you don't. There are ( on average) 10 times more people on the modern area than on the vintage area. You may want to stay in that area rather than come here where you are less knowledgeable. I've been collecting about 15 years and it has involved a lot of reading and study. I've been a member here since 2007. Vintage watches are special for a multitude of reasons- rarity, value, design, history are just a few but they have very little similarity with modern watches in regards to shopping. That's a fact. I wish you good luck with your education and maturation process. That's all the time I'm willing to invest in it.


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[themaninblack]

Some interesting perspectives discussed here. On a recent visit to Japan in a day walking around the Ginza I could have purchased at least twenty 1675's primarily matte but several gilt and a similar number of vintage Submariners including several 6536/1 and a 6538 as well as a gilt 5512 and a gilt 5513, also many matte dial offerings. Visted at least three large AD's and one in Shinjuku and not a single new Submariner or BLNR on show for purchase. There is nothing definitive about this experience but I think worth relating nonetheless. BTW, prices fairly high but quality was solid.

[JP Chestnut]

Originally Posted by lhanddds

Not sure why you are hangin out here, but in an effort to educate you, I'll tell you this. The many dealers you discuss having and selling vintage watches, are really not that astute. Many are sold without being authenticated. Of course they may be guaranteed but this amounts to them refunding your money (minus shipping). They can't simply go to the back and pull another identical watch out of the safe and hand it to you, like they can at a modern AD. Fake watches ( very good ones) are becoming the norm and it's no place for amateurs. I said they are "special" and they are for a multitude of reasons. As I said some get it some don't. It's ok if you don't. There are ( on average) 10 times more people on the modern area than on the vintage area. You may want to stay in that area rather than come here where you are less knowledgeable. I've been collecting about 15 years and it has involved a lot of reading and study. I've been a member here since 2007. Vintage watches are special for a multitude of reasons- rarity, value, design, history are just a few but they have very little similarity with modern watches in regards to shopping. That's a fact. I wish you good luck with your education and maturation process. That's all the time I'm willing to invest in it.


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You have no idea who you're talking to. I'm sure jed, Eric ku, and shear dont bother authenticating their watches. As far as "maturation", that's rich coming from someone who feels the need to list their watches in their sig!

Your dismissive tone is much appreciated though. Well earned given your 15 years of watch collecting - which isn't nearly as long as you seem to think.