Solar Panels... wachagot?

[Mifune]

SOLAR PANEL:
So I just went thru the SOLAR schpeel here at the house because I was understandably curious.

it all sounded wonderful and so... 'responsible'.

It wasn't as expensive and I thought it was going to be, but I have some serious questions.

Our quote was only $21k all in @ 3.99% for 20 years... barely a Skydweller on the secondary market, But when I priced the panels out myself and it only came to $4,000 (leaving $17k). Surely I am not going to do the job myself and according to the sales person, it's a four hour job and while there some other costs for wiring and an inverter (I will allot another 3$k) that leaves $14k... that's like $3500hr in labor.

So lets say, I am paying $100 a month for the system over 20 years, and my monthly payment for wired electricity is $100-$140 (summertime) a month over the same time period, it is basically a wash in terms of capital outlay, and it appears to me that I am paying $21,000 over 20 years for some over priced photovoltaic hardware to sit on my roof.
This current generation technology is getting older and older and is probably already outdated before its bolted to my roof.

At this point I don't think this is for me... I am not that 'energy conscience'.

[kulak]

$21k would take me 15 years to break even not including interest or future utility increases. I’ll be waiting for it to make more financial sense.

[TheVTCGuy]

I’m interested in this thread too. I just inherited a condo in AZ, am considering solar to offset the outrageous summer AC bills.

[Old Geezer]

Also consider that the performance of the panels also degrades over time so you won't have much of a period where your investment is paid off and you're reaping the benefits. The panels you install today will barely charge a flashlight in 20 years.

[DLRIDES]

Originally Posted by Mifune

SOLAR PANEL:
So I just went thru the SOLAR schpeel here at the house because I was understandably curious.

it all sounded wonderful and so... 'responsible'.

It wasn't as expensive and I thought it was going to be, but I have some serious questions.

Our quote was only $21k all in @ 3.99% for 20 years... barely a Skydweller on the secondary market, But when I priced the panels out myself and it only came to $4,000 (leaving $17k). Surely I am not going to do the job myself and according to the sales person, it's a four hour job and while there some other costs for wiring and an inverter (I will allot another 3$k) that leaves $14k... that's like $3500hr in labor.

So lets say, I am paying $100 a month for the system over 20 years, and my monthly payment for wired electricity is $100-$140 (summertime) a month over the same time period, it is basically a wash in terms of capital outlay, and it appears to me that I am paying $21,000 over 20 years for some over priced photovoltaic hardware to sit on my roof.
This current generation technology is getting older and older and is probably already outdated before its bolted to my roof.

At this point I don't think this is for me... I am not that 'energy conscience'.

Logic, data driven analysis, and being financially savvy is unacceptable in the alternative energy sector.

Please alter your outlook to a more societally accepted “intentions matter more than results” and purchase the solar panel system.

[Mifune]

Originally Posted by DLRIDES

Logic, data driven analysis, and being financially savvy is unacceptable in the alternative energy sector.

Please alter your outlook to a more societally accepted “intentions matter more than results” and purchase the solar panel system.

This needs more love.

--------------------------------------------------------------

for others here, I guess the fundamental issue for me is that even from the most basic considerations, there is no (or VERY LITTLE) cost benefit... and certain no where enough +EV for me to drill holes in my good roof and to disregard any resale issues that might arise well down the road when I have to explain 20 year old technology that is still bolted to my 'for sale' home.

it's not for me.

[JoeJoeBobo]

Is wachagot a measure of electricity?

[brandrea]

We did a solar panel system last fall for about the price of what you’re talking. It generates approx. 9K kWh of power for the year.

Our break even on the system is about 11 years based on current hydro rates in our area.

A couple of points to consider:

1. Rates will only go up making the payoff quicker.
2. PHEV’s make up about 1/4-1/3 of your total usage.
3. It’s good for the environment, if you care about that sort of thing.

[Atone]

You need batteries, inverter, charge controller, all that. Is the quote for $21k just for panels???

[Atone]

Originally Posted by Old Geezer

Also consider that the performance of the panels also degrades over time so you won't have much of a period where your investment is paid off and you're reaping the benefits. The panels you install today will barely charge a flashlight in 20 years.

This isn’t true. While not as effective as new panels I purchased. I still have panels at my cabin from its build date in 1991. The technology is def better now but they still work well enough to keep

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by Atone

You need batteries, inverter, charge controller, all that. Is the quote for $21k just for panels???

Our system powers back to the grid so no batteries. $20K ish All in was the cost.

Originally Posted by Atone

This isn’t true. While not as effective as new panels I purchased. I still have panels at my cabin from its build date in 1991. The technology is def better now but they still work well enough to keep

Exactly. My father in law has a system from the mid 90’s still running strong. He’s replaced a few panels, but they used micro inverters.

[Mifune]

Originally Posted by Atone

You need batteries, inverter, charge controller, all that. Is the quote for $21k just for panels???

That's a full system sans Battery backup.

[MrGoat]

Unfortunately I looked into this and ever since I’ve had an incessant amount of random dudes selling solar coming to my door despite the No soliciting sign.

Yeah, they promise a great deal. Yeah, they say they warranty your roof for any issues with the installation.

What they tell you very quickly is any extra money made off of your solar panels is theirs. They sell electricity back to the grid at less than 1/4 what the power company charges me for power and you as the homeowner gets none of it (except a “great” deal on solar). This is through the lifetime of your panels.

Ask about having a battery bank and the price jumps 200%.

It’s just another scam that the government is doing the advertising for.


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[Mifune]

Originally Posted by brandrea

A couple of points to consider:

1. Rates will only go up making the payoff quicker.
2. PHEV’s make up about 1/4-1/3 of your total usage.
3. It’s good for the environment, if you care about that sort of thing.

1-there's no way for me to accurately calculate that at the time of purchase so it doesn't figure into my data.
2-doesnt apply to me.
3-doesnt apply to me.

Nevada's avg kwh is 11.83$ and when we checked over a two year average, I am well below that as I fall into the <70% on average.
the system they quote was for around 8880kwh per annum with my monthly estimated around 740kwh output... my usage over two years was 685kwh

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by Mifune

1-there's no way for me to accurately calculate that at the time of purchase so it doesn't figure into my data.
2-doesnt apply to me.
3-doesnt apply to me.

Nevada's avg kwh is 11.83$ and when we checked over a two year average, I am well below that as I fall into the <70% on average.
the system they quote was for around 8880kwh per annum with my monthly estimated around 740kwh output... my usage over two years was 685kwh

So you’re against it?

[Atone]

Originally Posted by Mifune

That's a full system sans Battery backup.

Seems reasonable to me. Including lithium batteries I just shelled out $35k to overhaul the system at the cabin. Granted, this is off grid and an autonomous system.

[Blansky]

This was in the LA Times this morning on it...

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/stor...ll-too-extreme

I always thought that California should have made every new construction since the mid 1980s mandatory for rooftop solar. The additional cost of a new home would have been negligible and now 40 years later we would have had a very high percentage of solar homes.

What I always worried about was the fact that the sleazy utilities would keep changing the rules for how much they rebated for returning power to the grid which I think it has.

In a place like California with the amount of sunshine this should have been taken care of years ago. Battery backup is still something I'm iffy on.

During the recent summer heat wave the utility companies were telling people to not use unnecessary power for things that could be done in the sunlight hours because part of California's grid is solar and after dark it reverts to thousands of people riding stationary bicycles.(which uses too much water).

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by Atone

Seems reasonable to me. Including lithium batteries I just shelled out $35k to overhaul the system at the cabin. Granted, this is off grid and an autonomous system.

Sounds like a great spot

[Atone]

Originally Posted by brandrea

Sounds like a great spot

Absolutely keeps me sane having to live in LA man.

[JasoninDenver]

Originally Posted by Atone

Absolutely keeps me sane having to live in LA man.

How much battery storage did you install? I am looking at a system of essential services for my house and would need two Tesla power walls ($21k additional) The rep said don’t do it. Just buy an ev and use that as a battery when we lose electrical service.

[Mifune]

Originally Posted by brandrea

So you’re against it?

last months bill was 64$ with NV energy... so yeah, there is NO REASON to make the change.

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by Mifune

last months bill was 64$ with NV energy... so yeah, there is NO REASON to make the change.

They aren't for everyone.

Our annual savings is in the magnitude of $1800/yr so it make sense for us from a financial perspective.

I'm also into helping do our part with the environment, which I know you said isn't a consideration for you.

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[Atone]

Originally Posted by JasoninDenver

How much battery storage did you install? I am looking at a system of essential services for my house and would need two Tesla power walls ($21k additional) The rep said don’t do it. Just buy an ev and use that as a battery when we lose electrical service.

Installed 4 - 24 VOLT 200 AH LIT-ION BATTERY with 700 usable AH. I almost doubled my AH of the 12 AGM’s I had before. With a box for the batteries and thermostatic heating pads - came out to about $12k installed.

[White Collar Boy]

Originally Posted by brandrea

I'm also into helping do our part with the environment...

This needs more love.

[JasoninDenver]

Originally Posted by white collar boy

this needs more love.

x2

[Dan Pierce]

Originally Posted by White Collar Boy

This needs more love.

Originally Posted by JasoninDenver

x2

X 3.
dP

[East Bay Rider]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michael...p---was-wrong/

[JasoninDenver]

Originally Posted by East Bay Rider

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michael...p---was-wrong/

Agreed that we need to find a structure to internalize the total cost of these products.

However, we have failed to do that completely with our fossil fuel based transportation and electrical generation industries. For example, the negative health impacts on coal fueled electricity generation are not even remotely factored. Nor is the cost of upgrading transmission lines (see California wildfires caused by antiquated power lines) until we start looking at dramatic increases in rates.

Nuclear waste sequestration is just as difficult but has been implemented for over 40 years, so it can be done although this Forbes report does not mention that.

Any solution will bring a new set of problems. The benefit of solar is that it allows point source generation direct to the user without having to rely on extensive transmission networks. Typical electric grids lose more than 30% of power generated in transmission.

[Mendota]

Originally Posted by DLRIDES

Logic, data driven analysis, and being financially savvy is unacceptable in the alternative energy sector.



Please alter your outlook to a more societally accepted “intentions matter more than results” and purchase the solar panel system.

I cannot agree more. There is so much math, physics, and chemistry that are often ignored.

We all want to get there someday with these new technologies, including all of the oil majors, but this is a multi-generational endeavor that will require significant continued and ongoing investment in fossil fuels while we simultaneously continue to invest in and implement new technologies. It cannot be a zero sum game like the politicians and completely uneducated teenagers disasterously thought it could be. You cannot just flip a switch. It took over 160 years to get to where we are today from the first refining of oil in 1858. I predict it's going to take almost as long to completely divest the global infrastructure from it.

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[MrGoat]

Originally Posted by Mendota

I cannot agree more. There is so much math, physics, and chemistry that are often ignored.

We all want to get there someday with these new technologies, including all of the oil majors, but this is a multi-generational endeavor that will require significant continued and ongoing investment in fossil fuels while we simultaneously continue to invest in and implement new technologies. It cannot be a zero sum game like the politicians and completely uneducated teenagers disasterously thought it could be. You cannot just flip a switch. It took over 160 years to get to where we are today from the first refining of oil in 1858. I predict it's going to take almost as long to completely divest the global infrastructure from it.

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I didn’t hear a peep of protest about the 70 tons of fuel Artemis just used. Or about the fuel used in cargo ships or air travel. Seems cows and cars/trucks are the notorious offenders.


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